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17-02-2014, 08:40 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:14 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Nearby there are more mosques and some important churches preserved since the crusaders and various Christian Era in Jaffa.

So what? That is what is left of Mosques in Israel. The Zionists destroyed most of them and the fanatics want to destroy all of them.

Read this.

Regarding Arabs and Jews living amongst each other, Israeli-Jews can't even live peacefully amongst themselves. Jews themselves discriminate against each other based on their ethnic division.

Read this.

You are just spreading the usual Israeli/USA propaganda that Israel represents secularism in the Middle-East. That is just bullshit.
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17-02-2014, 08:42 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 05:54 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Wow - the thread has descended into a hellish monstrosity.

What I will say is Chippy is right that Zionism as practiced by the right wing ultra orthodox religious does have mythological "glorious past" fantasies. Same with the Islamic fantasies about the glorious past and greater Islamic Uma Caliphate of the 8th - 10th century.

However there is no "single Zionism" but many types - some without a religious basis whatsoever on a "glorious past". Many Zionists were staunch secularists, liberals and communists and settled on a land that was not a sovereign Arab country but a province of other Empires (British mandate, Ottoman Empire, Fatimid caliphate & Mamluk Empire etc etc........Never a 'Palestinian sovereign country'
This isn't really hard to grasp - its on every map and history book well before modern Israel existed.

Also consider some 700,000 Jews living in Israel were refugees FROM ARAB COUNTRIES - especially Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Libya and later Iran (not Arab but Islamic/Persian).
Many of these Jews were persecuted IN ARAB COUNTRIES before the state of Israel existed - especially Iraq were Arab pogroms were sympathising with Hitlers nationalism and killing Jews. Strange that these Jews predate even Islam in Iraq !
These Jews fleeing from Arab countries to Israel lost their homes, many lost their lives on dangerous journeys and had vast wealth stolen from them & left in humiliation. Non of these Jews have been compensated by Arab countries and even ended up living in poverty in Israel even up to the late 1970's discriminated by more elitist European Jews. However Israel did eventually house these jewish refugees from Arab countries and incorporate them into the economy and taday they are the majority (basically the middle eastern looking tanned Sephardi jews)

What about the 700,000 or so Palestinian refugees after the 1948 war ? What happened to them ? Where they housed by their Arab hosts ? Where they incorporated into the economies of those Arab countries ? The answer is a strong No ! They were deliberately left in UTTER squalor and destitution, even though there is enough money from Saudi Arabia to solve all the Palestinian refugee problem virtually immediately. Rather than solve the problem the Arab countries, particularly Lebanon & Syria (and Jordan until recently) kept the refugees as a weapon for a later date once you get 2nd & 3rd generation refugees (now in the many millions) Today the Syrian government is butchering Palestinian refugees on a scale greater than any Israeli action !

http://www.irinnews.org/report/96202/ana...-abandoned
A quick search reveals so many Syrian violations of human rights it makes Israel look like the Hilton -
more refugees created by Syria by 3 - 4 x than Israel ever has.

In any case - my point is that hundreds of thousands of Jews were refugees from Arab countries, totally abandoned and never compensated for vast wealth lost and literally becoming peasants. Now suddenly Israel has to be responsible for arab refugees in a disproportionate manner.

The irony & EXTREME stupidity of the Arab countries was if they looked after the Jews and protected them there would be hardly any Sephardi Jews in Israel !!! (today the majority)

The Arabs would have easily won the wars and destroyed Israel due to sheer outnumbering of the population ! (those 700,000 Jews fleeing Arab countries to Israel are a vital part of the defence of Israel & economy, even if persecuted at first in Israel itself they formed a cheap labour force building Israel's economy)

Irony of ironies !!!

What is your point? Because the Arab countries did not support the Palestinians, we are no longer obliged to do so, either? That's in essence what you are saying. You are dismissing any moral responsibilities by saying "look at them, they are immoral too"

Also, the religios and right wing parties have THE say in israeli politics and in the decision making. You are being hypocritical when saying that Palestinians can't be helped because they are electing a religious party, while in Israel the very same is the case.

And you mentioned that Israel is a flourishing country with western standards. If you live in America, you might know that USA is paying BILLIONS of dollars into Israeli health care programs and forgiving the debt EVERY YEAR. Yet, USA healthcare itself is rubbish. Think about USA's fanaticism over Israel. And USA is not alone in that. Also Germany is baying millions of euros every year to Israel. Any country would do quite well under those circumstances.

Get a perspective.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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17-02-2014, 08:43 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:30 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 08:14 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Israel has pockets of religious ultra-orthodox religious jewish enclaves (eg Meir-Sharim, Bnei Brack) - but other than that it has separation of "religion + State" and is as secular as most western counties.

No it isn't. It has a Chief Rabbinate which is a part of Israel's judicial system.

Religious courts are separated. GAYS CAN GET MARRIED !!!!
Israeli secular Jews sell non kosher food !!!
Non religious areas (virtually everything apart from a few enclaves) desecrate jewish Sabbath rules eg opening shops on Sabbath.
The religious enclaves despise the secularism (even though they have their own freedoms to build "yeshivot" religious schools, synagogues etc etc)

You clearly haven't got a clue.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-02-2014, 08:45 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:39 PM)Baruch Wrote:  If Gazan palestinians stopped firing missiles on Israel, used Saudi money or help from multiple other Arab countries to pursue peace there is NO REASON whatsoever why Gaza cannot have sky scrapers, lofty hotels, secular universities and thrive.

Like I previously stated prior to 1996 suicide bombing campaigns there was no Gaza embargo. The Gaza-Israel crossing was open for trade and 100,000 Palestinians has jobs in Israel and traded with Egypt post Camp David peace treaty with Egypt.

However who's responsibility is it for Gaza to have sky scrapers and use massive potential finances to build a thriving secular economy ? Hamas ?????? The PLO ?????
Why not use the abandoned Jewish settlements after Israel's unilateral withdrawal to build greenhouses and sell fruits from Gaza ? The Jews living there were prosperous and no reason why Palestinians cannot be prosperous if they follow a peaceful path. On the contrary - Israel has traded with Palestinians on a large scale previously prior to distrust after multiple suicide bombings. I'm not blaming all Palestinians, there are some smart academics and pragmatists - but unfortunately their rulers are totalitarian fascists religious fanatics and any secularism in Gaza will be crushed by Sharia.

You have serious issues with accessing information about the reality. Read the paper I posted, maybe you will stop making such stupid comments, which are far of reality. What is your source for all these opinions anyway? TV and TV based deduction?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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17-02-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:39 PM)Baruch Wrote:  If Gazan palestinians stopped firing missiles on Israel, used Saudi money or help from multiple other Arab countries to pursue peace there is NO REASON whatsoever why Gaza cannot have sky scrapers, lofty hotels, secular universities and thrive.

Yes there is: the Zionist fanatics.



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17-02-2014, 08:48 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:43 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Religious courts are separated. GAYS CAN GET MARRIED !!!!
Israeli secular Jews sell non kosher food !!!
Non religious areas (virtually everything apart from a few enclaves) desecrate jewish Sabbath rules eg opening shops on Sabbath.
The religious enclaves despise the secularism (even though they have their own freedoms to build "yeshivot" religious schools, synagogues etc etc)

You clearly haven't got a clue.

That is beside the point. A secular state should have no such thing as a "Chief Rabbinate" as part of its judicial system.
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17-02-2014, 08:48 PM
RE: Israel
And also, posting pictures does not enforce your point. Scientific articles and honest journalism does. So why don't you do yourself a favor and first read through our provided articles, so we can have a qualitative chat?

This is more like two people arguing against misconceptions and prejudices of others.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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17-02-2014, 08:49 PM
RE: Israel
Chippy, I really respect you for putting up with people who are ill-educated in some topics and still think they have a right to defend their position.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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17-02-2014, 08:56 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:42 PM)Youkay Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 05:54 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Wow - the thread has descended into a hellish monstrosity.

What I will say is Chippy is right that Zionism as practiced by the right wing ultra orthodox religious does have mythological "glorious past" fantasies. Same with the Islamic fantasies about the glorious past and greater Islamic Uma Caliphate of the 8th - 10th century.

However there is no "single Zionism" but many types - some without a religious basis whatsoever on a "glorious past". Many Zionists were staunch secularists, liberals and communists and settled on a land that was not a sovereign Arab country but a province of other Empires (British mandate, Ottoman Empire, Fatimid caliphate & Mamluk Empire etc etc........Never a 'Palestinian sovereign country'
This isn't really hard to grasp - its on every map and history book well before modern Israel existed.

Also consider some 700,000 Jews living in Israel were refugees FROM ARAB COUNTRIES - especially Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Libya and later Iran (not Arab but Islamic/Persian).
Many of these Jews were persecuted IN ARAB COUNTRIES before the state of Israel existed - especially Iraq were Arab pogroms were sympathising with Hitlers nationalism and killing Jews. Strange that these Jews predate even Islam in Iraq !
These Jews fleeing from Arab countries to Israel lost their homes, many lost their lives on dangerous journeys and had vast wealth stolen from them & left in humiliation. Non of these Jews have been compensated by Arab countries and even ended up living in poverty in Israel even up to the late 1970's discriminated by more elitist European Jews. However Israel did eventually house these jewish refugees from Arab countries and incorporate them into the economy and taday they are the majority (basically the middle eastern looking tanned Sephardi jews)

What about the 700,000 or so Palestinian refugees after the 1948 war ? What happened to them ? Where they housed by their Arab hosts ? Where they incorporated into the economies of those Arab countries ? The answer is a strong No ! They were deliberately left in UTTER squalor and destitution, even though there is enough money from Saudi Arabia to solve all the Palestinian refugee problem virtually immediately. Rather than solve the problem the Arab countries, particularly Lebanon & Syria (and Jordan until recently) kept the refugees as a weapon for a later date once you get 2nd & 3rd generation refugees (now in the many millions) Today the Syrian government is butchering Palestinian refugees on a scale greater than any Israeli action !

http://www.irinnews.org/report/96202/ana...-abandoned
A quick search reveals so many Syrian violations of human rights it makes Israel look like the Hilton -
more refugees created by Syria by 3 - 4 x than Israel ever has.

In any case - my point is that hundreds of thousands of Jews were refugees from Arab countries, totally abandoned and never compensated for vast wealth lost and literally becoming peasants. Now suddenly Israel has to be responsible for arab refugees in a disproportionate manner.

The irony & EXTREME stupidity of the Arab countries was if they looked after the Jews and protected them there would be hardly any Sephardi Jews in Israel !!! (today the majority)

The Arabs would have easily won the wars and destroyed Israel due to sheer outnumbering of the population ! (those 700,000 Jews fleeing Arab countries to Israel are a vital part of the defence of Israel & economy, even if persecuted at first in Israel itself they formed a cheap labour force building Israel's economy)

Irony of ironies !!!

What is your point? Because the Arab countries did not support the Palestinians, we are no longer obliged to do so, either? That's in essence what you are saying. You are dismissing any moral responsibilities by saying "look at them, they are immoral too"

Also, the religios and right wing parties have THE say in israeli politics and in the decision making. You are being hypocritical when saying that Palestinians can't be helped because they are electing a religious party, while in Israel the very same is the case.

And you mentioned that Israel is a flourishing country with western standards. If you live in America, you might know that USA is paying BILLIONS of dollars into Israeli health care programs and forgiving the debt EVERY YEAR. Yet, USA healthcare itself is rubbish. Think about USA's fanaticism over Israel. And USA is not alone in that. Also Germany is baying millions of euros every year to Israel. Any country would do quite well under those circumstances.

Get a perspective.

Get perspective ? Like Germany didn't loot and destroy vast Jewish wealth & lives and owe something ?????? Most payments were made in the 1950's not today.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations...st_Germany

Israel also played a key role to the US in the cold war. The US + USSR fuelled the proxy wars making Israel their battleground and influenced the cold war - as it turns out for US benefit. Eventually the US managed to control Egypt from Soviet influence -a huge set back to the USSR at the time. So its not like Israel was a charity case but used as a proxy just like US assistance to Japan or South Korea. (in the latter case also against China + USSR)
Who knows what would have happened has Nasser won and the USSR influence on the region was more entrenched. Today the battle lines are still similar with Russia protecting Syria. Egypt also gets vast assistance from the US, again not charity but to serve US foreign policy and power in the region.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-02-2014, 09:02 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:48 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 08:43 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Religious courts are separated. GAYS CAN GET MARRIED !!!!
Israeli secular Jews sell non kosher food !!!
Non religious areas (virtually everything apart from a few enclaves) desecrate jewish Sabbath rules eg opening shops on Sabbath.
The religious enclaves despise the secularism (even though they have their own freedoms to build "yeshivot" religious schools, synagogues etc etc)

You clearly haven't got a clue.

That is beside the point. A secular state should have no such thing as a "Chief Rabbinate" as part of its judicial system.

Actually secularism should allow for religious rights and representation. If Gays want to get married that's part of secularism. If religious orthodox don't want to accept gay marriage they shouldn't be forced to in their communities. Hence a Rabbinate represents some of the religious communities. However the legal system is pretty much secular law. If ultra orthodox get into a dispute they can go to a religious court and settle - but this is definitely not imposed on anyone. Like I said, its hard to fins a kosher place to eat in down town Tel-Aviv acceptable to ultra orthodox. There are kibbutzim not far from Tel-Aviv which farm pigs....hardly "Sharia" (well...Halacha)

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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