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17-02-2014, 09:06 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:46 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 08:39 PM)Baruch Wrote:  If Gazan palestinians stopped firing missiles on Israel, used Saudi money or help from multiple other Arab countries to pursue peace there is NO REASON whatsoever why Gaza cannot have sky scrapers, lofty hotels, secular universities and thrive.

Yes there is: the Zionist fanatics.




I'm not defending right wing Jewish settlers or ultra orthodox. I can show you photo's too of Palestinians lynching people alive.
[Image: Ramallah-lynch01.jpg]

[Image: palestinian-children-recreate-ramallah-l...00x202.jpg]

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-02-2014, 09:08 PM
RE: Israel
...again you have not got a clue...

The "Zionist fanatics" LOST !
The Israeli government forced them all out of Gaza in 2003.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-02-2014, 09:13 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:56 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 08:42 PM)Youkay Wrote:  What is your point? Because the Arab countries did not support the Palestinians, we are no longer obliged to do so, either? That's in essence what you are saying. You are dismissing any moral responsibilities by saying "look at them, they are immoral too"

Also, the religios and right wing parties have THE say in israeli politics and in the decision making. You are being hypocritical when saying that Palestinians can't be helped because they are electing a religious party, while in Israel the very same is the case.

And you mentioned that Israel is a flourishing country with western standards. If you live in America, you might know that USA is paying BILLIONS of dollars into Israeli health care programs and forgiving the debt EVERY YEAR. Yet, USA healthcare itself is rubbish. Think about USA's fanaticism over Israel. And USA is not alone in that. Also Germany is baying millions of euros every year to Israel. Any country would do quite well under those circumstances.

Get a perspective.

Get perspective ? Like Germany didn't loot and destroy vast Jewish wealth & lives and owe something ?????? Most payments were made in the 1950's not today.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations...st_Germany

Israel also played a key role to the US in the cold war. The US + USSR fuelled the proxy wars making Israel their battleground and influenced the cold war - as it turns out for US benefit. Eventually the US managed to control Egypt from Soviet influence -a huge set back to the USSR at the time. So its not like Israel was a charity case but used as a proxy just like US assistance to Japan or South Korea. (in the latter case also against China + USSR)
Who knows what would have happened has Nasser won and the USSR influence on the region was more entrenched. Today the battle lines are still similar with Russia protecting Syria. Egypt also gets vast assistance from the US, again not charity but to serve US foreign policy and power in the region.

You are using this as an excuse that both USA and Germany should INDEFINITELY pay vast amounts of money every year and forgiving the debt?

You must be joking.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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17-02-2014, 09:16 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 08:40 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 08:14 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Nearby there are more mosques and some important churches preserved since the crusaders and various Christian Era in Jaffa.

So what? That is what is left of Mosques in Israel. The Zionists destroyed most of them and the fanatics want to destroy all of them.

Read this.

Regarding Arabs and Jews living amongst each other, Israeli-Jews can't even live peacefully amongst themselves. Jews themselves discriminate against each other based on their ethnic division.

Read this.

You are just spreading the usual Israeli/USA propaganda that Israel represents secularism in the Middle-East. That is just bullshit.

The Arabs also destroyed all the synagogues in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter and pogroms massacred and destroyed the Jewish community in Hebron.

Yes Israeli jews have their own quarrels - so do most countries. There have been riots in the US, UK, France, Spain...many places. No one claims its an egalitarian paradise of hippies singing kumbaya.
Compared to the savage sectarian civil wars in virtually every Arab country its not doing that badly ! Ever seen the Italian parliament have a unemotional debate ?

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-02-2014, 09:21 PM
RE: Israel
Baruch, I say it again. Your opinion seems to be based on TV, Wikipedia, hear say and your own deduction. If you want to have a qualitative chat with us, stop posting PICTURES to strengthen your argument, and rather post credible scientific articles and honest journalism, like me and Chippy did. Also, do yourself a favor and read through those papers and articles, so you can have a counterpoint for your arguments. As it is now, you are having a monologue.

If you wish to talk about this issue on a sophisticated level, head over to the new Israel conflict solution thread on the politics forum and present your arguments BASED ON CREDIBLE SOURCES. You can also raise counter-arguments to the content of provided papers and articles. It is necessary for you to mention your sources and being able to demonstrate their creditability to be taken seriously. And pictures are not credible sources, just so you know...

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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17-02-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:13 PM)Youkay Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 08:56 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Get perspective ? Like Germany didn't loot and destroy vast Jewish wealth & lives and owe something ?????? Most payments were made in the 1950's not today.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations...st_Germany

Israel also played a key role to the US in the cold war. The US + USSR fuelled the proxy wars making Israel their battleground and influenced the cold war - as it turns out for US benefit. Eventually the US managed to control Egypt from Soviet influence -a huge set back to the USSR at the time. So its not like Israel was a charity case but used as a proxy just like US assistance to Japan or South Korea. (in the latter case also against China + USSR)
Who knows what would have happened has Nasser won and the USSR influence on the region was more entrenched. Today the battle lines are still similar with Russia protecting Syria. Egypt also gets vast assistance from the US, again not charity but to serve US foreign policy and power in the region.

You are using this as an excuse that both USA and Germany should INDEFINITELY pay vast amounts of money every year and forgiving the debt?

You must be joking.

Germany does not pay indefinitely. Most payment were made in a lump some in 1950's. The payment was negotiated and based on repatriation not indefinite payment.

The US give payments based on their own national military & political interests - I don't know what the future will be and no one says its indefinite. Obviously in the cold war Israel was a useful ally to the US. Currently it still serves US national interest to foreign policy as does financing Egypt with billions and Saudi, Kuwait etc

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-02-2014, 09:23 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:16 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 08:40 PM)Chippy Wrote:  So what? That is what is left of Mosques in Israel. The Zionists destroyed most of them and the fanatics want to destroy all of them.

Read this.

Regarding Arabs and Jews living amongst each other, Israeli-Jews can't even live peacefully amongst themselves. Jews themselves discriminate against each other based on their ethnic division.

Read this.

You are just spreading the usual Israeli/USA propaganda that Israel represents secularism in the Middle-East. That is just bullshit.

The Arabs also destroyed all the synagogues in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter and pogroms massacred and destroyed the Jewish community in Hebron.

Yes Israeli jews have their own quarrels - so do most countries. There have been riots in the US, UK, France, Spain...many places. No one claims its an egalitarian paradise of hippies singing kumbaya.
Compared to the savage sectarian civil wars in virtually every Arab country its not doing that badly ! Ever seen the Italian parliament have a unemotional debate ?

Again you are making the argument that because the Arabs (by the way, this is quite a generalising word) do not have Palestinians humanitarian needs in mind (which is a very general and WRONG statement), we don't have to, either.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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17-02-2014, 09:27 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 09:13 PM)Youkay Wrote:  You are using this as an excuse that both USA and Germany should INDEFINITELY pay vast amounts of money every year and forgiving the debt?

You must be joking.

Germany does not pay indefinitely. Most payment were made in a lump some in 1950's. The payment was negotiated and based on repatriation not indefinite payment.

The US give payments based on their own national military & political interests - I don't know what the future will be and no one says its indefinite. Obviously in the cold war Israel was a useful ally to the US. Currently it still serves US national interest to foreign policy as does financing Egypt with billions and Saudi, Kuwait etc

It has definitely lasted for the last 60 years. 60 YEARS. And there is no end in sight. How can you justify that? There is no other case, to the best of my knowledge, which similar dimensions of repatriation.

And US pays into the health care system of Israel and neglects its own. You seriously justify it with "military initerests"?

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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17-02-2014, 09:51 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:16 PM)Baruch Wrote:  The Arabs also destroyed all the synagogues in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter and pogroms massacred and destroyed the Jewish community in Hebron.

Yes Israeli jews have their own quarrels - so do most countries. There have been riots in the US, UK, France, Spain...many places. No one claims its an egalitarian paradise of hippies singing kumbaya.
Compared to the savage sectarian civil wars in virtually every Arab country its not doing that badly ! Ever seen the Italian parliament have a unemotional debate ?

My point precisely so stop with the binary caricature of Arabs vs. Jews. There are fanatics on both sides and it's not a case of good guys vs. bad guys like some american superhero comic.

The Zionist fanatics do still exist and their apologetic is entirely based on their self-authored mythology:







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17-02-2014, 09:55 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:51 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 09:16 PM)Baruch Wrote:  The Arabs also destroyed all the synagogues in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter and pogroms massacred and destroyed the Jewish community in Hebron.

Yes Israeli jews have their own quarrels - so do most countries. There have been riots in the US, UK, France, Spain...many places. No one claims its an egalitarian paradise of hippies singing kumbaya.
Compared to the savage sectarian civil wars in virtually every Arab country its not doing that badly ! Ever seen the Italian parliament have a unemotional debate ?

My point precisely so stop with the binary caricature of Arabs vs. Jews. There are fanatics on both sides and it's not a case of good guys vs. bad guys like some american superhero comic.

The Zionist fanatics do still exist and their apologetic is entirely based on their self-authored mythology:








In addition, the government is given direction by right wing and religious parties. It would be silly to assume that zionists don't have a strong political voice.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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