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17-02-2014, 09:56 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:27 PM)Youkay Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 09:23 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Germany does not pay indefinitely. Most payment were made in a lump some in 1950's. The payment was negotiated and based on repatriation not indefinite payment.

The US give payments based on their own national military & political interests - I don't know what the future will be and no one says its indefinite. Obviously in the cold war Israel was a useful ally to the US. Currently it still serves US national interest to foreign policy as does financing Egypt with billions and Saudi, Kuwait etc

It has definitely lasted for the last 60 years. 60 YEARS. And there is no end in sight. How can you justify that? There is no other case, to the best of my knowledge, which similar dimensions of repatriation.

And US pays into the health care system of Israel and neglects its own. You seriously justify it with "military initerests"?

Don't forget that its not like West Germany just sprang into existence - it was also rebuilt by the Marshall plan amongst other vast external rebuilding projects - it didn't come for free. Of course this is the right thing to do, leaving Germany as a scrap heap wouldn't be in the long term European interest. Ultimately making Germany thrive again and had key strategic goals against the soviet union. Considering Germany wiped out vast Jewish wealth - paying repatriation damages makes sense. I have been to Berlin and seen entire districts which used to be Jewish properties - the land alone in downtown Berlin would be worth Billions $.

What about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who had their wealth & property plundered from Arab countries they lived in ? I am not expecting vast Arab repatriation bills to be paid to Israel but it does cancel out Israel being indebted to Palestinians forever - both lost homes and both are responsible.

Like I previously stated - the irony is that Israel would be far weaker had Arabs taken care of the jews living in their countries rather than setting up pogroms against Jews and literally building Israel's population with "sefardic Jews" (who are now the majority). eg the Farhud pogrom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud
This is before Israel and has to do with fascist Arab nationalism

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-02-2014, 09:59 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:51 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 09:16 PM)Baruch Wrote:  The Arabs also destroyed all the synagogues in Jerusalem's Jewish Quarter and pogroms massacred and destroyed the Jewish community in Hebron.

Yes Israeli jews have their own quarrels - so do most countries. There have been riots in the US, UK, France, Spain...many places. No one claims its an egalitarian paradise of hippies singing kumbaya.
Compared to the savage sectarian civil wars in virtually every Arab country its not doing that badly ! Ever seen the Italian parliament have a unemotional debate ?

My point precisely so stop with the binary caricature of Arabs vs. Jews. There are fanatics on both sides and it's not a case of good guys vs. bad guys like some american superhero comic.

The Zionist fanatics do still exist and their apologetic is entirely based on their self-authored mythology:








Like I said, I don't defend far right wing ultra orthodox fundamentalists. I wouldn't exactly get along with them had you seen my other posts on atheism ! I would be a heretic.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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17-02-2014, 10:56 PM (This post was last modified: 17-02-2014 11:15 PM by Chippy.)
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:59 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Like I said, I don't defend far right wing ultra orthodox fundamentalists. I wouldn't exactly get along with them had you seen my other posts on atheism ! I would be a heretic.

I understand but you shouldn't pretend that these people, their opinions and their racist texts do not exist.

I don't know how familiar you are with Chabad-Lubavitch but their worldview can be characterised as Jewish supremacist. I have read large portions of their Lessons in Tanya and the least inflammatory way that I could describe the doctrine (Lurianic Kabbalah) is ethnocentric and exceptionalist. Less kinder critics would describe it as racist and supremacist.

The problem is that their beloved "Rebbe"--which didn't crawl out of his grave much to the disappointment of his followers--was a figure that was hosted by the US president and other political and social leaders. These nutjobs have political clout and they have views that if anyone else would espouse them they would be shouted down as a racist.

The problem for Jews in general is that for a non-trivial segment of them some antisemitic propaganda is true; some of them do believe the whole universe was created for them and that all of the world's people were created by Yahweh to eventually serve Jews. That theme which is presented in Isaiah appears much more strongly in the Tanya and in its elucidatory text Lessons in Tanya. Yes, I understand that liberal and reformed Jews vehemently reject this doctrine but many Orthodox Jews as well as Ultra-Orthodox Jews believe this supremacist tribal garbage. I see no substantive difference between the aspiration expressed in The Tanya and any ethnic fascist aspiration. The Tanya is decorated with a bunch of Jewish mystical Kabbalistic nonsense but the core idea is essentially Jews rule the world and that everyone is "spiritually" inferior to Jews. It is doctrines like these that have repeatedly put Jews in trouble throughout their history. When you write shit such as that Jews have two souls and everyone else has one and Jewish souls are pure and other such dross some other group of nutcases is going to "call your bluff" and test your alleged specialness and alleged special relationship with Yahweh and the universe.

I can give you links and refs to Lessons in Tanya so you can read this Jewish tribal mumbo-jumbo for yourself if you have not already done so.
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17-02-2014, 11:29 PM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 09:56 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 09:27 PM)Youkay Wrote:  It has definitely lasted for the last 60 years. 60 YEARS. And there is no end in sight. How can you justify that? There is no other case, to the best of my knowledge, which similar dimensions of repatriation.

And US pays into the health care system of Israel and neglects its own. You seriously justify it with "military initerests"?

Don't forget that its not like West Germany just sprang into existence - it was also rebuilt by the Marshall plan amongst other vast external rebuilding projects - it didn't come for free. Of course this is the right thing to do, leaving Germany as a scrap heap wouldn't be in the long term European interest. Ultimately making Germany thrive again and had key strategic goals against the soviet union. Considering Germany wiped out vast Jewish wealth - paying repatriation damages makes sense. I have been to Berlin and seen entire districts which used to be Jewish properties - the land alone in downtown Berlin would be worth Billions $.

What about the hundreds of thousands of Jews who had their wealth & property plundered from Arab countries they lived in ? I am not expecting vast Arab repatriation bills to be paid to Israel but it does cancel out Israel being indebted to Palestinians forever - both lost homes and both are responsible.

Like I previously stated - the irony is that Israel would be far weaker had Arabs taken care of the jews living in their countries rather than setting up pogroms against Jews and literally building Israel's population with "sefardic Jews" (who are now the majority). eg the Farhud pogrom
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farhud
This is before Israel and has to do with fascist Arab nationalism

I won't continue wasting my time on you. The flaw in your argument is so self-evident, and you do not seem to see it. It is like arguing with an 18 year old, whose only source of information is political propaganda, hear say, local media and wikipedia, and who desperately tries to align reality with his personal caricatural perspective.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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18-02-2014, 02:36 AM
RE: Israel
(17-02-2014 10:56 PM)Chippy Wrote:  
(17-02-2014 09:59 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Like I said, I don't defend far right wing ultra orthodox fundamentalists. I wouldn't exactly get along with them had you seen my other posts on atheism ! I would be a heretic.

I understand but you shouldn't pretend that these people, their opinions and their racist texts do not exist.

I don't know how familiar you are with Chabad-Lubavitch but their worldview can be characterised as Jewish supremacist. I have read large portions of their Lessons in Tanya and the least inflammatory way that I could describe the doctrine (Lurianic Kabbalah) is ethnocentric and exceptionalist. Less kinder critics would describe it as racist and supremacist.

The problem is that their beloved "Rebbe"--which didn't crawl out of his grave much to the disappointment of his followers--was a figure that was hosted by the US president and other political and social leaders. These nutjobs have political clout and they have views that if anyone else would espouse them they would be shouted down as a racist.

The problem for Jews in general is that for a non-trivial segment of them some antisemitic propaganda is true; some of them do believe the whole universe was created for them and that all of the world's people were created by Yahweh to eventually serve Jews. That theme which is presented in Isaiah appears much more strongly in the Tanya and in its elucidatory text Lessons in Tanya. Yes, I understand that liberal and reformed Jews vehemently reject this doctrine but many Orthodox Jews as well as Ultra-Orthodox Jews believe this supremacist tribal garbage. I see no substantive difference between the aspiration expressed in The Tanya and any ethnic fascist aspiration. The Tanya is decorated with a bunch of Jewish mystical Kabbalistic nonsense but the core idea is essentially Jews rule the world and that everyone is "spiritually" inferior to Jews. It is doctrines like these that have repeatedly put Jews in trouble throughout their history. When you write shit such as that Jews have two souls and everyone else has one and Jewish souls are pure and other such dross some other group of nutcases is going to "call your bluff" and test your alleged specialness and alleged special relationship with Yahweh and the universe.

I can give you links and refs to Lessons in Tanya so you can read this Jewish tribal mumbo-jumbo for yourself if you have not already done so.

Chippy - this is such straw man rubbish its ridiculous.
I am very familiar with Tanya and its not what either modern orthodox believe, neither many other orthodox groups (most from non Chassidic 'litvish' to other forms of Chassidic groups.)
i.e Many of these other ORTHODOX groups reject Tanya, some strongly.
Also All the reformist Jews utterly reject Tanya.

And this has little to do with secular Jews. Secular Jews are not necessarily reform - technically the term Jewish is virtually meaningless in many cases and undifferentiated from any other non religious group (atheists, agnostics, non denominational philosophies etc).
Many of the secular Israelis were staunchly anti religious adopting other philosophies imported from the European enlightenment - which jews were an integral part (from various forms of socialism, communism or capitalism's.)

As for Tanya - it does have a superiority syndrome - but it does not say go do military Jihads, suicide bombing or genocide. Not come across any "Chabbad suicide bombers" EVEN during their extreme desolation, starvation and pogroms (were this system was born in the desolations, persecutions and destructive anti-Semitism of 18th + 19th century Russia and Ukraine) there are no Chabbad militants killing people on any scale either then or now.
In fact its very unpractical waste of time, better chabbad go do some Jobs and benefit the economy that waste time about mystical ramblings.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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18-02-2014, 03:39 AM
RE: Israel
(18-02-2014 02:36 AM)Baruch Wrote:  As for Tanya - it does have a superiority syndrome

Yes and that is my point and thank-you for admitting that.
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18-02-2014, 04:36 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2014 05:39 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Israel
Baruch, maybe this will change your naive perspective. Israel has launched Phosphorus Bombs on Gaza on HOSPITALS and WAREHOUSES and thereby has intentionally committed war crimes over and over again.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20228449
http://www.expose-the-war-profiteers.org...hosphorus/
http://cdm266901.cdmhost.com/cdm/ref/col...l4/id/2161


September 15th, 2009 - Human Rights in Palestine and other Occupied Arab Territories (Report by the U.N. Human Rights Council)

"886. The Mission has recounted a number of incidents where it has particular concern about the choice to use white phosphorous. These incidents have been addressed in detail elsewhere and include the incidents at the UNRWA compound in Gaza City, the attacks on al-Quds and al-Wafa hospitals, also in Gaza City, and the use of white phosphorous in the attack on the Abu Halima family to the north of al-Atatra and in Khuz’a.

889. The Mission need not repeat much of what it has already concluded on the choice to use white phosphorous in specific circumstances. It has already made clear that the risks it posed to the civilian population and civilian objects in the area under attack were excessive in relation to the specific military advantages sought.

890. The Israeli Government has frequently pointed out the difficulties posed by fighting in built-up areas. One of the difficulties is the proximity of civilian premises to possible military targets. Commanders have no choice but to factor in the risk to such premises and the people inside them in deciding which weapons to use. The Mission finds that the Israeli armed forces were systematically reckless in determining to use white phosphorous in built-up areas and in particular in and around areas of particular importance to civilian health and safety."


Israeli army is excessively aggressive towards Palestinians. Compared to that, talking about potential suicide bombers and the rockets that Gaza shoots towards Israel, often without even hitting anything, is a JOKE! And you fell for that joke, congratulations.

Now step up your game and present some credible sources instead of your gibberish.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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18-02-2014, 05:00 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2014 05:35 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Israel
And have a look at this UNEP report on the "Environmental Assessment of the Gaza Strip"

http://www.unep.org/pdf/dmb/unep_gaza_ea.pdf

3.2 Damages directly attributable to the recent escalation of violence


- It is clear from this assessment that the environment in the Gaza Strip following the escalation of violence in December 2008 and January 2009 is severely degraded. In some environmental sectors, the hostilities caused direct damage that was clearly distinguishable by satellite image analysis, reports from other UN agencies, visual inspection of the age of the damage, and chemical analysis.

- satellite imagery shows that 2,692 buildings were impacted; some of these buildings were completely destroyed, while others were partially damaged and rendered unsafe.

- In addition, a number of buildings were hit by ammunition that caused fires and partial or total destruction of the structure. Building fires contaminate the building and/or the resulting rubble with polynuclear aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) and, if chlorinated compounds are present, with dioxins and furans, all of which are extremely hazardous.

- PAH concentrations in the ash sample are not alarmingly high, yet the volatile nature of the naphthalene it contains may render the building useless for future use as a food storage area, as planned by the Red Crescent.

- At the El Swaity juice and food production factory in the Beit Lahia area in northern Gaza Strip, the cooling warehouse had been hit by a bomb and had burst into flames. The fire was further fuelled by flammable Styrofoam insulation. The contents of the warehouse burned away completely, leaving soot, ash, tar and burnt organic substances in the debris. Thus, the debris can be considered contaminated with PAHs and probably with polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs), dioxins and furans as well.

- The recent escalation of hostilities led to the large-scale destruction of farmland, including orchards, greenhouses and open fields.

- The Gaza Strip is ecologically very vulnerable, as almost all agricultural land is situated within a few kilometres of desert-like sand dunes. Agriculture in the Gaza Strip is only sustained by the very delicate handling of the land by the farming community, which has generations of accumulated knowledge. The recent destruction of the vegetation cover has degraded the land in several ways.





It goes on and on. I hope you start feeling like the prick that you are for raising your voice against those innocent people who have already suffered so horribly without informing yourself adequately.

I have given you a lot of resources now. Start reading and maybe you might become a decent human being at the end of it.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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18-02-2014, 05:12 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2014 05:38 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Israel
And because you are so fond of pictures, here are a few for your enjoyment. But I really hope you have a look at the resources that I posted and don't remain that illeducated as you are right now regarding the conflict.

[Image: eiimage004a.jpg]
[Image: whiteplanding.jpg]
[Image: eiimage032.jpg]
[Image: Israeli%2BAir%2BStrike%2Bby%2BPhosphorou...753723.jpg]
[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZ5Ee00rBSexSseGHVLYL...MNLFqAX-fH]
[Image: _29600_Palestinian_child.jpg]
[Image: child_injured_in_israeli_attack_on_the_g...e_2007.jpg]
[Image: hvidfosfor3.jpg]

Do you want some more pictures for your enjoyment?!

THIS is the true dimensions of TERRORISM!

Now go and read the UNEP and UN Human Rights reports that I posted earlier, so you can fill up that emptiness in your head.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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18-02-2014, 07:04 AM
RE: Israel
This will be TGACs rebuttal:

Quote:Go and fuck a goat with herpes you bearded fascist antisemitic savage and then blow yourself up while you are fucking the goat with herpes but make sure you blow yourself up before you climax in the goat with herpes but after you get a headjob from one of your wives and give her the goat's herpes.

You want to use Jewish children as speed bumps and chimney sweeps you fascist hugely-bearded savage.

You would bathe in the tears of Jewish children you uncivilised antisemite with excessive facial hair.

Fuck you! Shove your arguments up your ass but make sure no Jewish children are watching you bearded fascist.

While I am insulting you I am a eating kreplach--prepared by an earnest Jewish woman of course--so this makes my insults more credible. Kreplach for Germany and herpes infected goats for Arab savages. Fuck you! Kreplach. Piano repair is not what it once was. Where does dust come from? Fuck you antisemites. Things--do we need them?
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