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13-02-2014, 11:28 PM
RE: Israel
(13-02-2014 05:10 PM)Ex-Faith Wrote:  One challenge from Christians that bothers me is the argument that Israel is proof of the Bible's accuracy. I can't deny that the Bible has a lot to say about Israel, and it doesn't appear to be wrong in its predictions about the Jews. This is a subject that I haven't studied in-depth. I'm wondering how a nonbeliever should answer this challenge. Thanks.

The Bible does not predict that Israel would be resurrected. Revelation does talk about the Temple and Jerusalem, but it does not mention the resurrection of Israel at all. Jerusalem has existed as a city, since ancient times, and it is not necessary for Israel to exist for that to be true.

Zionists convinced dominionist Christians that Israel had to exist for Revelation to happen, and they bought it, and that's all there is to it.

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14-02-2014, 12:50 AM
RE: Israel
Ex-Faith, your statement that Israel's resurrection is not in the Bible is not entirely accurate. It may not be in the New Testament, but there are references in the OT that Christians interpreted in this manner.

Isaiah 51:11: ‘Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.’

Obadiah 1:17: ‘But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.'

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14-02-2014, 01:04 AM
RE: Israel
(14-02-2014 12:50 AM)Diogenes of Mayberry Wrote:  Isaiah 51:11: ‘Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.’

Obadiah 1:17: ‘But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.'

Didn't Israel still exist when those were written?

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14-02-2014, 01:07 AM
RE: Israel
(14-02-2014 12:50 AM)Diogenes of Mayberry Wrote:  Ex-Faith, your statement that Israel's resurrection is not in the Bible is not entirely accurate. It may not be in the New Testament, but there are references in the OT that Christians interpreted in this manner.

Isaiah 51:11: ‘Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.’

Obadiah 1:17: ‘But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.'

And here I thought that the Old Testament wasn't supposed to count any more.

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14-02-2014, 01:10 AM
RE: Israel
Isaiah was written, over three parts, during the time of the Assyrian invasion, the Babylonian exile, and post-exile. Therefore there were calls for the return to the homeland, which later Christians re-imagine...like they did with everything else, to suit their ideologies.

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14-02-2014, 08:05 AM
RE: Israel
I feel like a moron now for even being worried about this in the first place! Religious folks insist that nonbelievers don't have reasoned answers to deep theological questions, but I am constantly finding that to be ridiculously untrue! Thanks for your feedback, everyone! I really do appreciate it!
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14-02-2014, 08:16 AM
RE: Israel
Omg Israel ... it was hard for the Jewish population surviving after the Holocaust - including Holocaust survivors like my father - who were formerly *not* generally Zionist previously - *not* to support the supposed solution to antisemitism after such horrors - and after large demonstrations in USA 'the golden land' for Jews - but they could not persuade even Roosevelt to take beleagered European Jews even so.

BUT of course this imo was a false messiah ... and with the assistance of a lot of Hasbara [propaganda] in the face of a psychological whirlwind - how could Jews depend on any body at that state .... and at the expense of Palestinians who lived there, shamefully yes ... AND as a pawn of the West who managed to f it all up - not least my own country [England] - and fled following Stern gang terrorism.

What the bible says? Useful propaganda but religious Jews would be religious Jews whatever ... and the West would still want the oil and a strategic power in the region - unless I'm wrong ....

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14-02-2014, 08:20 AM
RE: Israel
(13-02-2014 11:28 PM)Youkay Wrote:  
(13-02-2014 05:47 PM)Vlad Wrote:  So a bunch of scattered people want to return to their mostly-empty land controlled by a foreign nation (the British). After much effort, they manage to get their state recognized. Yeah, such a good proof of the Bible.

That is what you think?! That the land was "mostly empty"?! That is one of the stupidest things I have ever heard! That land was crawling with Palestines before Israel was founded on that very land, leading to a massive depossession of the local people, the ruination of the Palestine nation and ultimately to all the hate and war that is governing that conflict. Just so you know.

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In my oppinion, it would have been a MUCH better solution, if Israel was founded in todays Bavaria, or any other part of Germany. Or even better, USA. They have plenty of land, which is on top supposed to be "promised" too, and they assumingly have a huge sympathy for jews. By forcefully founding Israel where it is now, only because the bible foretold it, was the origin of all the tension and the hate.

One correction, though. There was never a nation of Palestine. That parcel of land was always under the control of someone else, basically going back to the Persians, until part of it was carved out as the State of Israel in 1948. Were there people living there - absolutely. But it wasn't a self-governing nation. Was it the best place to do it? I don't know. But there would have been people that would not have liked being displaced wherever it might have happened. And the Jews did see that area as their ancestral homeland. At this point it is not going to be undone, so the people there, Jews and Arabs, are going to have to figure out how to make it work, or continue killing each other.
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14-02-2014, 08:52 AM
RE: Israel
(14-02-2014 08:20 AM)meremortal Wrote:  One correction, though. There was never a nation of Palestine. That parcel of land was always under the control of someone else, basically going back to the Persians, until part of it was carved out as the State of Israel in 1948. Were there people living there - absolutely. But it wasn't a self-governing nation. Was it the best place to do it? I don't know. But there would have been people that would not have liked being displaced wherever it might have happened. And the Jews did see that area as their ancestral homeland. At this point it is not going to be undone, so the people there, Jews and Arabs, are going to have to figure out how to make it work, or continue killing each other.

Yes, you are right. In my abjection I forgot that that piece of land switched hand quite often and could never declare its independence until 1988. After WW1 and the fall of the ottoman empire, the british empire had the mandate to rule over the region. And despite the major revolts against the british rule in 1920, 1929 and 1936, it was only in 1947 that the british empire denounced their mandate over palestine and wanted to divide it into an arab state and a jewish state. That is when the civil war ignited once again. 1948 Israel was founded. And when you look at the map that I posted previously, israel expanded and expanded, driving out and dispossessioning millions of people.

Of course, the damage is done and now Israel exists in the midst of nations who will not forget this so perceived injustice. I was just horrified at the blatancy of the previous commenter.

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14-02-2014, 09:16 AM
RE: Israel
(13-02-2014 09:11 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  When have facts and reality ever stood in the way of fundies belief?

Never! That's why Jesus invented conveniently vague explanations and parables. It helps sweep the facts under the rug!
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