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05-02-2015, 11:46 PM
Israel
How can one refute claims that the existence of modern day Israel is fulfillment of prophecy? I tire of dealing with this. They always seem to come up with another one. As far as I'm concerned all such prophecies are self fulfilling.

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06-02-2015, 01:45 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2015 04:29 AM by DLJ.)
RE: Israel
I think it's irrefutable... that Israel exists.

Suggest to the other party that they get a pen and write down 100 predictions ... some vague and general; some detailed and specific for world events that could happen within an agreed time period (the next two years or weeks... whatever).

You can do the same, if you like.

After the agreed time period count how many prophecies have come true and score these by their level of specificity.

Actually this might be an interesting experiment to start on TTA. Anyone? Smile

I doubt that you'll need to say much more as the thought experiment itself should be enough to make the point about scriptural predictions.

And that's not even mentioning the backwardly-engineered nature of the majority of biblical predictions.

If you're going to mention those, do so from a "Quran predicts science' perspective to highlight the absurdity.

Smile

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06-02-2015, 02:56 AM
RE: Israel
Israel was created not because of some prophecy.

It was created to provide a safe nation for jews where they can seek refuge from persecution, discrimination and murder.

It was created not for religious puposes but for humanitarian purposes.

And anyone who claims that it was created through som christian prophecy is in my mind an antisemite who doesnt give a damn about the true reasons for Israels existance.

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06-02-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: Israel
The orginasation «Sceptique du Québec» to which I belong makes every year a prophecy contest where one has to prediction about the future. You can inscribe you has a sceptic or a medium if you believe in that sort of things. It used to be on everything from sports, to politics to weather and natural catastrophies, but now they limit themselves to natural catastrophies, weather and big political and social events. You can even randomly generate a prophecy with a macro called «la Boite Noire». Each year the results are similar 30% of the prohecy comes true no matter who makes them which was at first unexpectedly high. Yes, a vague prophecy (or even a very precise one) will come true from time to time this is a part of Murphy's Law not the proof that you have connection wit a superior beeing. Furthermore, the creation of Israel is a humen political will that became true with work, efforts and decades of civil war. It's not a gift from a God it's from the blood and sweat of thousand of person that this contry like all the others was made.
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06-02-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: Israel
(05-02-2015 11:46 PM)f stop Wrote:  How can one refute claims that the existence of modern day Israel is fulfillment of prophecy? I tire of dealing with this. They always seem to come up with another one. As far as I'm concerned all such prophecies are self fulfilling.

How unusual would it be for a defeated people to claim that someday they will be restored? The idea that something that can be counted as matching a vague prophecy happens in some cases doesn't mean anything. It isn't much better than the "there will be wars" prophecy and certainly doesn't point to any actual knowledge of future events.

If they go for the "a nation will be created in a day" canard, the US was created July 4, 1776. Iraq on November 11, 1920. For every nation you can find a day that marks it being "created" if you are willing to ignore all the planning and work that went on before and any time afterwards before it was generally accepted.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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06-02-2015, 08:49 AM
RE: Israel
(06-02-2015 02:56 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Israel was created not because of some prophecy.

It was created to provide a safe nation for jews where they can seek refuge from persecution, discrimination and murder.

It was created not for religious puposes but for humanitarian purposes.

And anyone who claims that it was created through som christian prophecy is in my mind an antisemite who doesnt give a damn about the true reasons for Israels existance.

I'd say you're probably at least 80 percent correct, but.....

We've always had religious zealots. Some of them even get into high public offices.

I'm betting more than one person involved in the creation of the state of Israel thought he was doing "god's work".

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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06-02-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Israel
People can call it what they want. Israel's laws are generally secular in nature, so I'll play along in the name of secular imperialism.

'Murican Canadian
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06-02-2015, 10:49 AM
RE: Israel
The formation of Israel began prior to WW I and even goes back to the Victorian era when some of the more religious members of the aristocracy wanted to get involved and create a place for the Jews to live. President Woodrow Wilson, who was the son of a minister, was pushing for the same thing. The knowledge of these prophecies was, of course, in the back of the minds of people involved in the formation of Israel.

I had some guy say that the borders of the present day Israel is the same as in ancient times and this was part of the prophecy. Ok, except at one time, in ancient Israel, it was divided into two nations. So which nation is the true one, the North or South?

It's also a secular country which isn't in the prophecy.

Bunch of hooey.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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06-02-2015, 11:21 AM
RE: Israel
I don't know if you could say anything to derail their mindset, the creation of Israel can obviously be traced back to British withdrawal from Mandatory Palestine as well as pressures from an influx of Jews fleeing the Holocaust. It seems that god would have made it a cut and dried thing, but ever since they declared independence in 1948, it has been a cauldron of war and strife.

But seriously, god couldn't think of a better way to bring about the establishment of Israel? Did the whole Holocaust thing need to happen? Really?

Ahh god, always willing to destroy the village to save it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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06-02-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: Israel
(06-02-2015 08:49 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  
(06-02-2015 02:56 AM)The Germans are coming Wrote:  Israel was created not because of some prophecy.

It was created to provide a safe nation for jews where they can seek refuge from persecution, discrimination and murder.

It was created not for religious puposes but for humanitarian purposes.

And anyone who claims that it was created through som christian prophecy is in my mind an antisemite who doesnt give a damn about the true reasons for Israels existance.

I'd say you're probably at least 80 percent correct, but.....

We've always had religious zealots. Some of them even get into high public offices.

I'm betting more than one person involved in the creation of the state of Israel thought he was doing "god's work".

Nope.

the early zionists were socialists and secular.

religious jews even opposed the founding of Israel until Ben Gureon baited them into it.

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