Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
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04-12-2012, 04:08 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2012 04:11 PM by Aseptic Skeptic.)
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
Touché mon frère, but don't touch my brother.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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04-12-2012, 04:33 PM
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
(04-12-2012 02:45 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(04-12-2012 09:26 AM)I and I Wrote:  
Frankly, I'm starting to think you're an idiot.
Well of course.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...on-it-but…


I and I was the first person I thought of while reading that list. He is guilty of every single one of those faults, in fact the entirety of his arguments rely on them.

I appreciate your effort in reasoning with him Aseptic, but it's an exercise in futility. Let him believe we are all brainwashed capitalists, his entire perspective on reality depends upon it.

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04-12-2012, 04:58 PM
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
(04-12-2012 04:08 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Touché mon frère, but don't touch my brother.
Sad ohhhh, please?

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04-12-2012, 04:58 PM
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
(04-12-2012 02:45 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(04-12-2012 09:26 AM)I and I Wrote:  right and the diamonds are not cut when they are shipped to Israel? making them rough diamonds. This means Israel gets to import rough diamonds, cut and polish them before dealing them around the world thus managing to take advantage of the loophole in the kimberly process.

And the kimberly process definition of blood diamond only refers to rebel groups that benefit from the diamond mining and attempt to overthrow or start wars with other governments. Any and all other abuses like low wages, abusive work places, unsafe mine work, child labor in mines is not against the kimberly process policies.

Again, your attempts to make Israel look good fall short. Israel profits from a business that uses child labor, abusive work practices and unsafe work practices.

This isn't surprising, the Zionist movement early on considered using part of Uganda to settle and form their "pure jewish state" Zionism is an imperialist racist organization that profits off of and thrives off of oppressing other people and profiting off of that oppression.

I am not surprised that you care nothing about anyone that isn't white and european like yourself.

So Israel is in Europe now? Have you notified them of their move?

In your crazy, conspiracy-theory-addled delusions, you believe that it's possible for KP certified diamonds to not be really KP certified? Because they're KP certified ON THEIR WAY INTO ISRAEL. Just because someone in Israel cuts them, doesn't make them stop being originally KP certified before the cutting.

If your accusation is that the Kimberly Process cannot be trusted, then that's a bigger issue than whether or not Israelis are exploiting African diamond labor. But that isn't what you're saying, so get your story straight.

Finally, even if some guy (or a few guys) in Israel circumvents the KP certification and buys blood diamonds and then cuts them and sells them through this perceived loophole, that doesn't mean the whole country of Israel "profits from a business that uses child labor, abusive work practices and unsafe work practices". Even if you could prove that some Israeli jewelers are guilty of purchasing blood diamonds, which I am sure that you cannot, how do you turn that into a blanket accusation of the whole country?

Frankly, I'm starting to think you're an idiot.
The Israeli government benefits from the diamond industry.

Yes Israel along with other countries exploit africans for diamonds.

Your statement that finding a couple of Israeli companies that use the KB loophole doesn't mean that one cannot turn that into a blanket accusation. This is what all apologists for state crimes do. They, for example turn government sanctioned torture under the bush administration into just a few bad apples and nothing more. Any apologist for state crimes or mass exploitation uses this argument because the argument is designed to shift blame onto a few individuals without looking at wider issues. Another example is the economic crisis, instead of looking at the system which promotes and rewards the behavior of the economists that caused the economic collapse, it was turned into a "few bad apples" argument.
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04-12-2012, 05:14 PM
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
@earmuffs

I do leave him alone, like on the other thread about Palestine statehood, since it is a complicated conflict and both sides are both right and both wrong, and on the end- everyone is entitled to have their own opinion on the subject.

But there is a big difference between arguing against Israel's check points and stating something that just isn't true, a statement which its only purpose is to defame my country. Israel has done and still doing everything in its power to prevent from blood diamonds coming to its market, because it acknowledges the responsability it has in this subject since its diamonds market is among the biggest in the world. I can not let some conspiracy-theorist-anti-Israel-bigot to make such a false statement with out being properly responded.
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04-12-2012, 05:16 PM (This post was last modified: 04-12-2012 05:35 PM by Aseptic Skeptic.)
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
(04-12-2012 04:58 PM)I and I Wrote:  The Israeli government benefits from the diamond industry.
You're right. They do. And the vast, nearly total, majority of it is KP certified for good reason. Maybe all of it. I surely don't know and neither do you. But if, if, some individuals are less scrupulous and break these regulations, that's a reflection of the individual, not of the country - especially since the country has created national laws to enforce the proper behavior. Clearly the country and its government care to enforce KP regulations despite what you think.

(04-12-2012 04:58 PM)I and I Wrote:  Yes Israel along with other countries exploit africans for diamonds.
Do they? Or do they pay "offshore" companies to provide goods and/or services in mining, shipping, and selling rough diamonds, all with KP certifications and regulated by Israeli government policies to ensure that no exploitation occurs?

Or more accurately, Israel being a country, instigates laws that allows jewelers to import KP certified diamonds and cut them and sell them as a business. Israel itself does not exploit Africans for diamonds regardless of whether some businessmen who live and conduct business in Israel do. And you don't know that any of them do. Neither do I. But what I know is that Israel,the country, has done the right thing, the proper thing, to initiate and enforce KP regulations to keep businessmen in their company from exploiting Africans.

(04-12-2012 04:58 PM)I and I Wrote:  Your statement that finding a couple of Israeli companies that use the KB loophole doesn't mean that one cannot turn that into a blanket accusation. This is what all apologists for state crimes do. They, for example turn government sanctioned torture under the bush administration into just a few bad apples and nothing more. Any apologist for state crimes or mass exploitation uses this argument because the argument is designed to shift blame onto a few individuals without looking at wider issues. Another example is the economic crisis, instead of looking at the system which promotes and rewards the behavior of the economists that caused the economic collapse, it was turned into a "few bad apples" argument.

I'm not apologizing for any state crimes. I don't see any state crimes. Those things that look to you like state crimes are probably just your own hemorrhoids or colon polyps - go see a proctologist and have him perform a recto-cranial extraction and you'll be able to see more clearly.

Maybe this argument IS designed to shift blame from an organization to an individual. Maybe sometimes it is even used expressly for that purpose. But, far more often, maybe it's just because a few individuals screwed up, broke some laws, and the organization really had no part of it. Israel has done the right thing. Neither of us even knows if individuals in Israel are doing the wrong thing or not, but Israel itself has done the right thing. Just because I'm saying so doesn't make me an apologist, nor does it automatically make imaginary individuals (you have name nobody specifically) in Israel automatically guilty of imaginary crimes (you have no evidence of a real crime) that you make up in your own delusional mind. Find some evidence. Prove that a jeweler in Israel is exploiting Africans - then you can bitch about a real crime rather than an imaginary one. Send that proof to the Israeli government. Watch them arrest that jeweler proving that they are still doing the right thing, or watch them ignore your proof in which case you will then have a somewhat valid argument that Israel is at least allowing its citizens to exploit Africans.

Until you do that, you're just pissing in the wind.

Get some help.

Start with that proctologist.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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04-12-2012, 05:51 PM
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
(04-12-2012 05:16 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(04-12-2012 04:58 PM)I and I Wrote:  The Israeli government benefits from the diamond industry.
You're right. They do. And the vast, nearly total, majority of it is KP certified for good reason. Maybe all of it. I surely don't know and neither do you. But if, if, some individuals are less scrupulous and break these regulations, that's a reflection of the individual, not of the country - especially since the country has created national laws to enforce the proper behavior. Clearly the country and its government care to enforce KP regulations despite what you think.

(04-12-2012 04:58 PM)I and I Wrote:  Yes Israel along with other countries exploit africans for diamonds.
Do they? Or do they pay "offshore" companies to provide goods and/or services in mining, shipping, and selling rough diamonds, all with KP certifications and regulated by Israeli government policies to ensure that no exploitation occurs?

Or more accurately, Israel being a country, instigates laws that allows jewelers to import KP certified diamonds and cut them and sell them as a business. Israel itself does not exploit Africans for diamonds regardless of whether some businessmen who live and conduct business in Israel do. And you don't know that any of them do. Neither do I. But what I know is that Israel,the country, has done the right thing, the proper thing, to initiate and enforce KP regulations to keep businessmen in their company from exploiting Africans.

(04-12-2012 04:58 PM)I and I Wrote:  Your statement that finding a couple of Israeli companies that use the KB loophole doesn't mean that one cannot turn that into a blanket accusation. This is what all apologists for state crimes do. They, for example turn government sanctioned torture under the bush administration into just a few bad apples and nothing more. Any apologist for state crimes or mass exploitation uses this argument because the argument is designed to shift blame onto a few individuals without looking at wider issues. Another example is the economic crisis, instead of looking at the system which promotes and rewards the behavior of the economists that caused the economic collapse, it was turned into a "few bad apples" argument.

I'm not apologizing for any state crimes. I don't see any state crimes. Those things that look to you like state crimes are probably just your own hemorrhoids or colon polyps - go see a proctologist and have him perform a recto-cranial extraction and you'll be able to see more clearly.

Maybe this argument IS designed to shift blame from an organization to an individual. Maybe sometimes it is even used expressly for that purpose. But, far more often, maybe it's just because a few individuals screwed up, broke some laws, and the organization really had no part of it. Israel has done the right thing. Neither of us even knows if individuals in Israel are doing the wrong thing or not, but Israel itself has done the right thing. Just because I'm saying so doesn't make me an apologist, nor does it automatically make imaginary individuals (you have name nobody specifically) in Israel automatically guilty of imaginary crimes (you have no evidence of a real crime) that you make up in your own delusional mind. Find some evidence. Prove that a jeweler in Israel is exploiting Africans - then you can bitch about a real crime rather than an imaginary one. Send that proof to the Israeli government. Watch them arrest that jeweler proving that they are still doing the right thing, or watch them ignore your proof in which case you will then have a somewhat valid argument that Israel is at least allowing its citizens to exploit Africans.

Until you do that, you're just pissing in the wind.

Get some help.

Start with that proctologist.
Obviously you weren't reading the thread, the kimberly process refers to exporting blood diamonds in rough form. This means one can import blood diamonds into their country, cut and polish them and then export them, therefore the big loophole. There is a group of people that are trying to get more restrictions than those already in place by the Kimberly Process.

The blood diamond definition also doesn't include diamonds that come from child labor and abusive labor practices in mines.

The blood thirsty Shiranl is proud that her country only recognizes a narrow definition of "blood diamond" and is proud that her country won't recognize abusive labor and child labor as morally wrong.

Are you denying that abuse and child labor goes on in diamond mines?
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04-12-2012, 06:10 PM
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
this is the KPCS:

http://www.kimberleyprocess.com/document...20Document

Section 2
"Each Participant should ensure that:
(a) a Kimberley Process Certificate (hereafter referred to as the Certificate)
accompanies each shipment of rough diamonds on export"

Israel is a participant.

"my country" recognizes?!?!!? this is the fucking INTERNATIONAL definition of blood diamonds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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04-12-2012, 06:15 PM
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
The Kimberley Process is a total fraud, set-up and controlled by vested interests. The diamond industry was forced, after years of negotiations, to introduce minimal standards to prevent the trade in diamonds that fund human rights violations. However, the vested interests ensures that human rights criteria only applied to the trade in rough diamonds in the control of rebel movements and not diamonds that fund human rights violations by government forces - especially not the high value cut and polished diamonds.

Israel is the main beneficiary of the global diamond industry, gaining $11 billion NET in 2011. Israel imports KP compliant rough diamonds, cuts and polished them increasing their value ~5 fold and re-exports them worldwide. According to the Israeli economist Shir Hever, revenue from the Israeli diamond industry generates about $1 billion/yr in funding for the Israeli military. When someone buys a diamond exported from Israel some of the money ends up funding the Israeli military. The Israeli military stands accused of serious war crimes and possible crimes against humanity by the UN Human Rights Council for crimes committed in Gaza in 2008/2009.

Diamonds from Israel are therefore blood diamonds - not "conflict diamonds" as described by the discredited KP - blood diamonds.

Just a week ago, this woman in Ireland showed her disgust at jewellers for bankrolling Israeli war crimes in Gaza by smashing her diamond to dust. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONbrYCrBs...e=youtu.be
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04-12-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: Israel/Capitalism and good ole blood diamonds
(04-12-2012 06:15 PM)Loggur Wrote:  The Kimberley Process is a total fraud, set-up and controlled by vested interests. The diamond industry was forced, after years of negotiations, to introduce minimal standards to prevent the trade in diamonds that fund human rights violations. However, the vested interests ensures that human rights criteria only applied to the trade in rough diamonds in the control of rebel movements and not diamonds that fund human rights violations by government forces - especially not the high value cut and polished diamonds.

Israel is the main beneficiary of the global diamond industry, gaining $11 billion NET in 2011. Israel imports KP compliant rough diamonds, cuts and polished them increasing their value ~5 fold and re-exports them worldwide. According to the Israeli economist Shir Hever, revenue from the Israeli diamond industry generates about $1 billion/yr in funding for the Israeli military. When someone buys a diamond exported from Israel some of the money ends up funding the Israeli military. The Israeli military stands accused of serious war crimes and possible crimes against humanity by the UN Human Rights Council for crimes committed in Gaza in 2008/2009.

Diamonds from Israel are therefore blood diamonds - not "conflict diamonds" as described by the discredited KP - blood diamonds.

Just a week ago, this woman in Ireland showed her disgust at jewellers for bankrolling Israeli war crimes in Gaza by smashing her diamond to dust. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONbrYCrBs...e=youtu.be
I have been saying the same thing and according to an Israeli citizen on this forum, that means one is a bigot for mentioning the Kimberly Process fraud.
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