Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
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14-08-2014, 01:03 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2014 01:17 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Here I have made a compilation of reliable sources that you can use to inform yourself:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid624425

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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14-08-2014, 03:43 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2014 03:49 AM by zaybu.)
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
(13-08-2014 07:13 PM)Youkay Wrote:  zaybu, I am quoting human rights watch organizations that have a record of integrity, honesty and accuracy. There is absolutely no controversy among human rights organizations regarding this matter.

Then I am presenting academic papers, which need to be peer reviewed before they can make it into journals. And if you read some academic journals, you would see that there is a great academic consensus on this topic.

Granted, books and documentaries can be biased and manipulative, which is why I did not want to share too many of those. But at least the book by Prof. Norman Finkelstein that I shared is heavily referenced and therefore very credible.

Finally I shared the UN resolution to this conflict, which has remained unchanged since 1970, demonstrating that among sincere and honest circles, there really is absolutely no controversy on this topic.

You shamelessly labeled all of these as "left-wing Palestinian apologists".




You on the other hand are providing a CNN link.




That is ridiculous. Do you honestly believe that my sources are biased while your source is not? It is like weighing the academic consensus on climate change against the media hyped controversy on the same topic and giving both sources the same credibility. Or the academic consensus on stem cell research, or on vaccination... The list goes on. While academic circles and human rights organizations have a record of honesty and accuracy, media outlets have a record of manipulation and misinformation.

It is seriously embarrassing and speaks volumes that you provided that link in response.

But in most universities, you will find a majority of academics are left/liberal minded. And sadly enough, the Left has become apologists for the Palestinians, and so their criticism is anything but unbiased or neutral - it is driven by ideology. I provided that article from CNN, not that it is an unbiased media outlet, but because the article provides a counter view. Anyone who is serious about this issue must look at both sides of the fence. And the day you do that, you will see that the Left is on the wrong side of history in regard to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Propaganda is no substitute for studying history.

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14-08-2014, 08:58 AM (This post was last modified: 14-08-2014 09:08 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
One embarrassing contribution after another, zaybu...

I suppose academics are too left/liberal minded on the issues of stem cell research, climate change and vaccination as well? Academic publications are peer reviewed, and the process of that is very very thorough. You can be sure that they are not biased or one-sided. Unlike media, which very often is biased on purpose.

Academics aside, do you also label human rights organizations as Palestinian apologists? That is rich. Human rights organisations have a reputation for their accuracy and honesty. But now that their findings don't please you, you label them liars... Very intellectually honest of you.

You have this world conspiracy going on in your head, in which academics, international human rights organisations, the UN and international law have all united to conspire against Israel. Is that it? Maybe it is time to make yourself a hat out of tin foil...

Way to go to just ignore this MOUNTAIN of facts and evidence, which happens to contradict your opinion. You're the man...

"Propaganda is no substitute for studying history"
Seriously? Just when I thought you couldn't embarrass yourself any further. You label academia, human rights organisations, UN resolutions and international judicature as PROPAGANDA now? Wow... Facepalm

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14-08-2014, 12:29 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
(14-08-2014 08:58 AM)Youkay Wrote:  One embarrassing contribution after another, zaybu...

I suppose academics are too left/liberal minded on the issues of stem cell research, climate change and vaccination as well? Academic publications are peer reviewed, and the process of that is very very thorough. You can be sure that they are not biased or one-sided. Unlike media, which very often is biased on purpose.

You're confusing hard science with politics.



Quote:Academics aside, do you also label human rights organizations as Palestinian apologists? That is rich. Human rights organisations have a reputation for their accuracy and honesty. But now that their findings don't please you, you label them liars... Very intellectually honest of you.

They have a reputation for cherry-picking their facts.


Quote:You have this world conspiracy going on in your head, in which academics, international human rights organisations, the UN and international law have all united to conspire against Israel. Is that it? Maybe it is time to make yourself a hat out of tin foil...

FYI, antisemitism did not die with the defeat of Nazi Germany. It is quite alive today, and you should know as you are indicating every trace of it.

Quote:Way to go to just ignore this MOUNTAIN of facts and evidence, which happens to contradict your opinion. You're the man...

And I'll bet you are ignoring MOUNTAIN of facts and evidence that the Palestinians are to blame for their misery.

Quote:"Propaganda is no substitute for studying history"
Seriously? Just when I thought you couldn't embarrass yourself any f
urther. You label academia, human rights organisations, UN resolutions and international judicature as PROPAGANDA now? Wow... Facepalm

You are a fine example of what I'm talking about. As soon as I contradict you, you didn't engage in a serious discussion, instead you went on a rant.

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14-08-2014, 12:56 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
I would recommend reading books on the subject. The history is far too detailed and complex for a documentary to be sufficient.
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14-08-2014, 11:15 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
I don't engage in a serious discussion with you because your source material is pathetic.

And people who would say that academia and human rights organisations are cherry-pickers are beyond help.

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15-08-2014, 05:51 AM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2014 05:55 AM by zaybu.)
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
(14-08-2014 11:15 PM)Youkay Wrote:  I don't engage in a serious discussion with you because your source material is pathetic.

And people who would say that academia and human rights organisations are cherry-pickers are beyond help.

It's an old tactic you're employing: attack the messenger instead of the message. That means you have no valid argument to offer and you're behaving no better than many Palestinian apologists who spew their propaganda all over the net.

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15-08-2014, 12:20 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Quote:'Youkay: I am quoting human rights watch organizations that have a record of integrity, honesty and accuracy.

Really ? From the sources you showed in your links looks like many of the human rights organizations work for the Palestinian terrorist groups as their employees for propaganda.

Take for example the blockade against Gaza and the various human rights references you linked to as so called "unbiased sources" with "Integrity, Honesty and accuracy"

...I have explained at length that Hamas are responsible for the blockade within Gaza and perpetuate Palestinian suffering. This is hardly "no controversy" considering in the 1980's & early 1990's some 100,000 Palestinians worked within Israel without any humanitarian crisis whatsoever earning wages higher than in many local countries (& with Egypts crossing relaxed).

This ended in the late 1990's after multiple suicide bombings within heavily populated Israeli cities by Hamas & other groups from Gaza as a response to the Oslo accords. THEN there were stronger restrictions at least from the Israeli side of the border.

Your "unbiased human rights organizations" seem to forget these points.

Israel then completely withdrew from Gaza in 2005 ending any "occupation".

After the Hamas coup d'etat in 2007 both Egypt & Israel imposed a blockade to control what enters Gaza - quite rational & reasonable considering Hamas removed any inspections across the borders by PA & EU leaving any trade completely under Hamas supervision.
Even Egypt doesn't want this situation and the Hamas coup d'etat was condemned world wide including human rights watch ! (wow - HRW eventually publish something that might show the true responsibility for Palestinians making the crappiest choices for their leadership leading to their suffering).
http://www.hrw.org/news/2007/06/12/gaza-...ave-crimes
Interestingly enough Hamas was also fighting the PA from hospitals !
Quote:In addition, Fatah and Hamas forces engaged in battles in and around two Gaza Strip hospitals on Monday. After Hamas fighters killed Fatah intelligence officer Yasir Bakar, Fatah gunmen began firing mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, drawing Hamas fire from inside the building, killing one Hamas and one Fatah fighter. At a hospital in Beit Hanun, three family members with ties to Fatah, `Id al-Masri and his sons, Farij and Ibrahim, were killed, and others wounded. Hospital officials reported that the three were being treated for injuries sustained earlier. One was reportedly shot at close range
It is quite clear that Hamas & other extremists are responsible for the suffering of their civilian populations.

...I could continue but some of amnestyusa points really do discredit themselves such as complaining about building restrictions due to hundreds of truckloads of construction materials being restricted. Looks like all the concrete that did enter Gaza was diverted by Hamas and went to construct kilometers of terrorists tunnels into Israel !!! - that is one MASSIVE building project for Hamas and one MASSIVE theft from any civilians not involved.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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15-08-2014, 01:05 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Quote:"Propaganda is no substitute for studying history"
Seriously? Just when I thought you couldn't embarrass yourself any f
urther. You label academia, human rights organisations, UN resolutions and international judicature as PROPAGANDA now? Wow... Facepalm

UN resolutions or the UN in general is often extremely biased. These are not some fair arbitrators sitting in some detached ivory tower taking no sides.
I can give numerous cases of hypocrisy & bias.
Consider the scenario of "disproportional aggression" and the crude comparisons of death tolls as if this is somehow the deciding factor on who has any moral high ground. The utter absurdity of this is staggering. (and bad philosophical reasoning)
EG- in the first Gulf war Iraqi civilian casualties inflicted by the coalition were many times higher than the coalition. SOme estimate over 10,000 civilians directly as a result of the war and 70,000 from the aftermath of the war.
http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2003...ies-of-war
I personally know someone who was living in Baghdad at the time who had no power and low food supplies for a few Months after the war - and she was from a wealthy district ! No media station gave her story of "coalition war crimes & disproportionality"
DOes the UN condemn the coalition for war crimes and because Iraqi civilian deaths are much higher than the Coalition then somehow Saddam is the poor victim ???? ???
However when Israel defends its self from thousands of missiles aimed at civilian targets within Israeli cities the UN just uses crude comparisons of death tolls without recognition that Hamas in this case deliberately but their civilian population in harms way - using child soldiers, human shields,terror tunnels & rockets hidden in public buildings etc.....
The other reason for the absurdity is when deaths are prevented within Israel by the IDF there is no recognition for the necessity of defense eg numerous suicide bombing attempts, terror attacks, kidnappings & rockets have been prevented saving numerous civilians - but this doesn't make good propaganda compared to the UN screaming out "disproportionality" because people see graphic photographs without the context for how Hamas (and other groups) deliberately create a situation to put civilians in harms way.
The evidence is glaring - The UN staff refused to take photo's of rockets hidden within UNWRA schools and the media hardly reports such violations and the UN dont take any meaningful action other than return the rockets "back to the authorities" i.e Hamas !!!
In other cases CNN has an interview with the Hamas political leader Mashall who denies using civilians as human shields whilst CNN does not show the numerous video's of rockets fired from densely populated Palestinian areas or Hamas harassment of media reporters.

So the UN are far from some honest, accurate organization who are unbiased.

As for many other UN resolutions some of them are just ridiculous. Take for example the numerous resolutions from the 1956 Sinai war, 6 day war & Yom Kippur war for Israel to withdraw from SInai. Clearly Israel only wanted withdrawal in exchange for security or peace deals - how absurd to make a resolution for condemning Israel to withdraw without any treaty to secure its future frontier with Egypt ? I wonder what would have happened had Egypt won the wars and penetrated Israeli borders - somehow I thing very little by the international community.

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
David Hume


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15-08-2014, 05:35 PM (This post was last modified: 16-08-2014 02:07 AM by Baruch.)
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
YouKay - you claim credibility, Honesty, integrity etc from human rights groups & UN etc and lack of bias:

The ultimate in UN stupidity must be Navi Pillay condemning Israel for not sharing the Iron Dome with Hamas as a war crime !!!

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/...with-Hamas

You really want people to take you seriously YouKay or any of your "academic" comments from "uncontroversial & unbiased people" ? Really ?

This is like the UN condemning the USA for not giving Saddam the Patriot missiles as "US Warcrimes" because now Saddam cannot destroy cruise missiles.

No one explains the "disproportionality" that $50,000 has to be spent to knock off every $1000 Hamas missile. (and that's mostly US taxpayers money)
.....or that Hamas after firing some 12,000 of these rockets has spend over 12 million dollars it could have used to invest & rebuild Gaza helping civilians.
.....or that without a blockade instead of mortars, Grad-2 rockets, Qassams and some Fajr-5 Hamas would be firing Katyusha's with far more widespread devastation within Israel - so far only some of the rockets were Katyusha's which carry much larger payloads.
(or who knows even scuds if they could get them in - but Katyusha's will do the job quite well which is what Hezbullah use).
....or that without a blockade on Gaza various israeli cities on the coastline would look like Baghdad, Damascus or Kabul following suicide bombs, IED's, offshore attacks from the sea and gun attacks...
just have a scroll considering https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/recent/

A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence -
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