Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
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18-08-2014, 01:24 AM (This post was last modified: 18-08-2014 03:08 AM by Youkay.)
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Sorry for the late reply, but there were other things of concern which did not allow me to come and look at your comments.

(15-08-2014 05:51 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(14-08-2014 11:15 PM)Youkay Wrote:  I don't engage in a serious discussion with you because your source material is pathetic.

And people who would say that academia and human rights organisations are cherry-pickers are beyond help.

It's an old tactic you're employing: attack the messenger instead of the message. That means you have no valid argument to offer and you're behaving no better than many Palestinian apologists who spew their propaganda all over the net.

You are such a hyprocrite, accusing me of "attacking the messenger instead of the message", while you yourself handily brushed off more than a dozen sources after labeling them as propaganda and returning with one single, shameful CNN link.

I am ready to discuss with you when I have the impression you even had a glimpse at my sources.

(15-08-2014 12:20 PM)Baruch Wrote:  
Quote:'Youkay: I am quoting human rights watch organizations that have a record of integrity, honesty and accuracy.

Really ? From the sources you showed in your links looks like many of the human rights organizations work for the Palestinian terrorist groups as their employees for propaganda.

I chose to only provide you with the most known human rights organizations' reports, which are amnesty international, human rights watch and International Federation of Human Rights. These are all non-profit and international organizations, so I really wonder what motif you can accuse them of having to pursue "anti-Israeli propaganda". I rather think you don't want their reports to be true based on personal interest.

In fact, every single human rights organisation agrees on the illegality of the Israeli occupation, criminality of their military actions and the humanitarian crisis that Israel emposes on Palestinians. What you are saying is that all human rights organisations "work for Palestinian terrorist groups", which is down right insane!


Regarding the rest of your post:


a) the law in Israel is discriminatory against the Palestinians living within Israel (but this is not what primarily matters to me or what I want to talk about)

b) all human rights organizations also agree that Hamas and Palestinian Security Forces are infringing on the human rights of Palestinians. On the other hand, collective punishment, especially to the scale and degree that we repeatedly see in this conflict, is a clear violation of human rights.

c) the humanitarian crizis situation in Gaza and the West Bank is mostly due to the Israeli military occupation of Palestinian territories and the strict restrictions that Israel emposes on the Palestinians trade and supply. This crizis affects more than 1.5 million people in Gaza alone for decades.
So why do you chose to neglect them and instead talk about 100.000 people living in Israel?

d) your link directs me to an article "US: Stop Intimidating Missouri Protesters". I think that is not the link you wanted to share

e) it is quite clear that Hamas does engage in actions that are counter-productive for its own people. However, it is also quite clear that the damage that Hamas causes pales in comparison with that of the occupation. Palestinians' trade and supply are heavily regulated, effectively crippling their economy. They weren't even allowed to import fridges, until this restriction was lifted quite recently as a result of huge pressure which was applied on Israel. Construction material which is allowed into Gaza is far too little compared to the amount of destroyed houses, hospitals, schools and other public buildings. The water which is allowed to reach Gaza households has been largely insufficient for years. In the recent attacks the only power plant in Gaza has been specifically targeted and destroyed, leading to an electricity shortage. The list goes on, and these factors that contribute to the humanitarian crisis situation in Gaza are listed in the reports (if you would care to read). All these factors are solely the product of the military occupation and military violence.

f) judging from your comments, you don't seem to have read the UN resolutions at all. Read them first before commenting.

g) Show me the UN report or resolution which the Breitbark article is reporting on and then we can talk about it.

h) and for all your other numeric claims, give me reports that depict the numbers that you flail around or I won't have a choice but to assume that you are making them up.



Finally, you seem to forget that Israel is occupying Palestinian territories for more than 4 decades now. If Israel withdrew from OPTs and allowed Palestinians to form a functional nation, what gives you the idea that this may lead to bombings in Israeli cities? In the current situation, you have a huge population that lives under foreign occupation and circumstances that are generally classified as a humanitarian crisis. Of course, it is easily predictable that this would lead to violence and hate against the occupying force. The solution to this problem, as the UN agrees for 50 years now, is the formation of two seperate countries, and not, as Israel believes, disproportionate application of violence that further worsens the living conditions of millions and millions of people.


I have to attend to other stuff now. Do me a favor and read or at least quickly skim over some of the sources that I shared before commenting on them or judging them. I would value your criticizm based on the content of the reports and resolutions. Not this empty talk.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...e-conflict

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19-08-2014, 05:45 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
(18-08-2014 01:24 AM)Youkay Wrote:  Sorry for the late reply, but there were other things of concern which did not allow me to come and look at your comments.

(15-08-2014 05:51 AM)zaybu Wrote:  It's an old tactic you're employing: attack the messenger instead of the message. That means you have no valid argument to offer and you're behaving no better than many Palestinian apologists who spew their propaganda all over the net.

You are such a hyprocrite, accusing me of "attacking the messenger instead of the message", while you yourself handily brushed off more than a dozen sources after labeling them as propaganda and returning with one single, shameful CNN link.

I am ready to discuss with you when I have the impression you even had a glimpse at my sources.

(15-08-2014 12:20 PM)Baruch Wrote:  Really ? From the sources you showed in your links looks like many of the human rights organizations work for the Palestinian terrorist groups as their employees for propaganda.

I chose to only provide you with the most known human rights organizations' reports, which are amnesty international, human rights watch and International Federation of Human Rights. These are all non-profit and international organizations, so I really wonder what motif you can accuse them of having to pursue "anti-Israeli propaganda". I rather think you don't want their reports to be true based on personal interest.

In fact, every single human rights organisation agrees on the illegality of the Israeli occupation, criminality of their military actions and the humanitarian crisis that Israel emposes on Palestinians. What you are saying is that all human rights organisations "work for Palestinian terrorist groups", which is down right insane!


Regarding the rest of your post:


a) the law in Israel is discriminatory against the Palestinians living within Israel (but this is not what primarily matters to me or what I want to talk about)

b) all human rights organizations also agree that Hamas and Palestinian Security Forces are infringing on the human rights of Palestinians. On the other hand, collective punishment, especially to the scale and degree that we repeatedly see in this conflict, is a clear violation of human rights.

c) the humanitarian crizis situation in Gaza and the West Bank is mostly due to the Israeli military occupation of Palestinian territories and the strict restrictions that Israel emposes on the Palestinians trade and supply. This crizis affects more than 1.5 million people in Gaza alone for decades.
So why do you chose to neglect them and instead talk about 100.000 people living in Israel?

d) your link directs me to an article "US: Stop Intimidating Missouri Protesters". I think that is not the link you wanted to share

e) it is quite clear that Hamas does engage in actions that are counter-productive for its own people. However, it is also quite clear that the damage that Hamas causes pales in comparison with that of the occupation. Palestinians' trade and supply are heavily regulated, effectively crippling their economy. They weren't even allowed to import fridges, until this restriction was lifted quite recently as a result of huge pressure which was applied on Israel. Construction material which is allowed into Gaza is far too little compared to the amount of destroyed houses, hospitals, schools and other public buildings. The water which is allowed to reach Gaza households has been largely insufficient for years. In the recent attacks the only power plant in Gaza has been specifically targeted and destroyed, leading to an electricity shortage. The list goes on, and these factors that contribute to the humanitarian crisis situation in Gaza are listed in the reports (if you would care to read). All these factors are solely the product of the military occupation and military violence.

f) judging from your comments, you don't seem to have read the UN resolutions at all. Read them first before commenting.

g) Show me the UN report or resolution which the Breitbark article is reporting on and then we can talk about it.

h) and for all your other numeric claims, give me reports that depict the numbers that you flail around or I won't have a choice but to assume that you are making them up.



Finally, you seem to forget that Israel is occupying Palestinian territories for more than 4 decades now. If Israel withdrew from OPTs and allowed Palestinians to form a functional nation, what gives you the idea that this may lead to bombings in Israeli cities? In the current situation, you have a huge population that lives under foreign occupation and circumstances that are generally classified as a humanitarian crisis. Of course, it is easily predictable that this would lead to violence and hate against the occupying force. The solution to this problem, as the UN agrees for 50 years now, is the formation of two seperate countries, and not, as Israel believes, disproportionate application of violence that further worsens the living conditions of millions and millions of people.


I have to attend to other stuff now. Do me a favor and read or at least quickly skim over some of the sources that I shared before commenting on them or judging them. I would value your criticizm based on the content of the reports and resolutions. Not this empty talk.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...e-conflict


Quote:d) your link directs me to an article "US: Stop Intimidating Missouri Protesters". I think that is not the link you wanted to share

This is the article from human rights watch.
The link I sent you is not about "US: Stop Intimidating Missouri Protesters" keeps changing depending on HRW headline:

Quote:During recent fighting in the Gaza Strip, armed Palestinian groups have committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In internal Palestinian fighting over the last three days, both Fatah and Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles with one another inside and near Palestinian hospitals. On Saturday, armed Palestinians from Islamic Jihad and the Fatah-affiliated Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade used a vehicle with a “TV” insignia to attack an Israeli military position on the border with Gaza.

“These attacks by both Hamas and Fatah constitute brutal assaults on the most fundamental humanitarian principles,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director for Human Rights Watch. “The murder of civilians not engaged in hostilities and the willful killing of captives are war crimes, pure and simple.”

On Sunday, Hamas military forces captured 28-year-old Muhammad Swairki, a cook for President Mahmoud Abbas’s presidential guard, and executed him by throwing him to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story apartment building in Gaza City. Later that night, Fatah military forces shot and captured Muhammad al-Ra’fati, a Hamas supporter and mosque preacher, and threw him from a Gaza City high-rise apartment building. On Monday, Hamas military forces attacked the home in Beit Lahiya of Jamal Abu al-Jadiyan, a senior Fatah official, captured him, and executed him on the street with multiple gunshots. On Tuesday, there were reports of additional killings of individuals not involved in hostilities.

In addition, Fatah and Hamas forces engaged in battles in and around two Gaza Strip hospitals on Monday. After Hamas fighters killed Fatah intelligence officer Yasir Bakar, Fatah gunmen began firing mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, drawing Hamas fire from inside the building, killing one Hamas and one Fatah fighter. At a hospital in Beit Hanun, three family members with ties to Fatah, `Id al-Masri and his sons, Farij and Ibrahim, were killed, and others wounded. Hospital officials reported that the three were being treated for injuries sustained earlier. One was reportedly shot at close range.

All parties engaged in armed conflict are subject to customary international humanitarian law, which forbids deliberate harming of civilians and those who are not engaged in armed hostilities at the time, Human Rights Watch said. International humanitarian law also provides special protection to medical personnel and hospitals. Military and civilian hospitals and medical units must be protected and respected in all circumstances.

In the June 9 incident, four armed Palestinians drove a white jeep bearing “TV” insignias to a fence on the Gaza-Israel border and fired at Israeli soldiers. The Israelis returned fire, killing one Palestinian. Spokesmen for Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, an offshoot of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. An Islamic Jihad spokesperson denied that Palestinians had put press markings on the jeep used in the June 9 attack, and accused the Israeli military of doing so after the fact. However, photos taken by the Associated Press as the attack was under way show the letters “TV” written in red on the front of the jeep.

“Using a vehicle with press markings to carry out a military attack is a serious violation of the laws of war, and it also puts journalists at risk,” said Whitson.

Customary international humanitarian law provides that journalists not taking direct part in hostilities in armed conflict zones “shall be considered as civilians.” The deliberate abuse of this protected status in order to breach the confidence of an adversary in an attempt to kill, injure or capture them, would amount to an act of perfidy, a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

The Palestinian Journalists Union on Sunday criticized the use by armed factions of press insignia in a statement: “The use of vehicles that carry ‘Press,’ ‘TV’ or other signs ... exposes journalists’ lives to danger, gives the Israeli occupation a pretext to target and kill journalists and restricts their ability to perform their professional and national duties. … We demand all parties stop using these methods.”

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19-08-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Quote: On the other hand, collective punishment, especially to the scale and degree that we repeatedly see in this conflict, is a clear violation of human rights.

...again, Hamas is responsible for the situation in Gaza.
As a collective Hamas was democratically elected. They choose to run Gaza like a barbaric fascist regime and unfortunately civilians who don't like Hamas will end up suffering. Gaza is not a proportional representative democracy and the rights of those people who oppose Hamas policy within Gaza is brutally suppressed hence Hamas is responsible for collective punishment of its citizens.

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19-08-2014, 06:10 PM (This post was last modified: 20-08-2014 12:54 PM by Baruch.)
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Quote:f) judging from your comments, you don't seem to have read the UN resolutions at all. Read them first before commenting.

g) Show me the UN report or resolution which the Breitbark article is reporting on and then we can talk about it.

My point was that some UN resolutions do not consider the strategic situations on the ground such as requiring Israel to unconditionally withdraw from Sinai.
Had Israel bowed down to such resolutions blindly "because the UN says so" the conflict situation may be much worse. I used this example because Israel now has a peace treaty with Egypt & diplomatic relations after many years of a war of attrition. Had Israel followed UN resolutions it would have not solved the conflict with Egypt. The resolution below was followed but the 1967 resolutions to withdraw from Sinai NOT followed which eventually led to a peace treaty. Had the UN not messed up the situation in 1956 then negotiations exchanging withdrawal for peace may have taken place earlier.
A similar situation exists with Syria but Assad refused to exchange the Golan Heights for Peace in a King David like summit. Why should Israel withdraw from an extremely strategic zone without a peace treaty ? Especially because the Golan Heights was used as a launching ground for targeting Israeli cities in the north with artillery shells & snipers before 1967 ? Syria mobilized for war with the intention of destroying Israel and they lost ! Tough. If they want the land back then at least normalize relations and construct a peace treaty.

An example of the text of the resolution is:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsou...a1002.html
Quote:UN General Assembly Resolutions:
Resolution 1002
On 6 November 1956, Britain and France announced that they would cease fire and withdraw from the Canal zone with no prior conditions. Israel had accepted the cease fire on 3 November, insisting at the same time that prior arrangements be made regarding the freedom of navigation and relations with Egypt in general before the Israeli forces were withdrawn. The General Assembly, nevertheless, passed the following Resolution, 65 votes for, 1 against, 10 abstentions:

The General Assembly,

Recalling its resolutions 997 (ES-I) of 2 November 1956, 998 (ES-I) and 999 (ES-I) of 4 November 1956 and 1000 (ES-I) of 5 November 1956, adopted by overwhelming majorities,

Noting, in particular, that the General Assembly, by its resolution 1000 (ES-I), established a United Nations Command for an emergency international Force to secure and supervise the cessation of hostilities in accordance with all the terms of its resolution 997 (ES-I).

1. Reaffirms the above-mentioned resolutions;

2. Calls once again upon Israel immediately to withdraw all its forces behind the armistice lines established by the General Armistice Agreement between Egypt and Israel of 24 February 1949;

3. Calls once again upon the United Kingdom and France immediately to withdraw all their forces from Egyptian territory, consistently with the above-mentioned resolutions;

4. Urges the Secretary-General to communicate the present resolution to the parties concerned, and requests him promptly to report to the General Assembly on the compliance with this resolution.

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19-08-2014, 06:21 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Quote:What you are saying is that all human rights organisations "work for Palestinian terrorist groups", which is down right insane!

I never said "ALL" - you distorted my comments.
Those associated with UNWRA are affiliated with terrorism, sometimes indirectly and sometimes directly (such as handing over rockets found in schools to Hamas). UNWRA is responsible for perpetuating Palestinian suffering due to many factors I previously posted.

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19-08-2014, 06:49 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Quote:other numeric claims, give me reports that depict the numbers that you flail around or I won't have a choice but to assume that you are making them up

Of course you think I have to make them up because knowing that prior to Hamas & other Jihadist terrorism from Gaza in the 1990's (as a response to the Oslo peace accords) having up to 100,000 palestinians working in Israel from Gaza leading to a flourishing Gaza economy totally uproots all your points about infringement of human rights due to the Israeli blockade. The blockade didn't just appear one day out of thin air.
The blockades to Gaza were partial in the late 1990's (after 1996) and then tightened up after Hamas over through the PA in 2007.

Why on earth would Israel want to provide resources to a territory controlled my extremist fascist Jihadist militants with a constitution to kill all Jews and destroy Israel ? ...again Hamas is responsible because prior to Gaza terrorism there was a weakly controlled border with Gaza.

This is an article from 1996 debating the problem of foreign workers replacing some 1/4 million Palestinians working within Israel after closures due to violence & terrorism.
http://migration.ucdavis.edu/mn/more.php?id=1041_0_5_0

With suicide bombings threatening mayhem such as found on the streets of Baghdad is it any surprise Israel would choose to employ foreign workers and close the Gaza crossing ? With terrorism in Egypt and support of the Muslim Brotherhood is is a surprise Egypt is reluctant to open the border to Gaza ?
WHat is the common thread ?
Hamas & other Islamic Jihadists dictatorship doesn't exactly inspire a normal trading relationship.

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19-08-2014, 07:07 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
Quote: If Israel withdrew from OPTs and allowed Palestinians to form a functional nation, what gives you the idea that this may lead to bombings in Israeli cities?

1. Because when Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza & dismantled all settlements instead of Palestinians investing & building up Gaza (easily possible with vast financial assistance from Arab States & Western investment) they voted for Hamas who's founding constitution declared its objective is to destroy Israel and kill all Jews.

The answer to your question YouKay is extraordinarily simple:
Hamas Charter states:

Quote:The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:
----------------------------------------
'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession]
consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one
can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.'
(Article 11)
'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the
Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem
wherever he may be.' (Article 13)

Quote:ejection of a Negotiated Peace Settlement:
-------------------------------------------
[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and
international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of
the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than
a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of
Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by
Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a
waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

Quote:Anti-Semitic Incitement:
------------------------
'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and
kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the
rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind
me, come and kill him.' (Article 7) [quoted from Hadith]

...and you naively claim that all will be OK if Israel just withdraw from Palestinian territories. Why do you think the West doesnt exactly negotiate with people like ISIS and just tell them to be nice and we will all sing kumbaya and live happily ever after ?
Why would Israel withdraw from strategic zones in the West bank (such as the Jordanian border) without a proper peace initiative when IDF withdrawal from Gaza has led to a Hamas terrorist state instead of Palestinian leadership taking the initiative to build a civilian infrastructure and turn Gaza into a Singapore or Dubai ?

..again, Hamas and other Jihadist affiliation is to blame for the collective suffering of Palestinians and agencies like UNWRA only perpetuate the problems.

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20-08-2014, 04:08 AM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
(18-08-2014 01:24 AM)Youkay Wrote:  ...
The solution to this problem, as the UN agrees for 50 years now, is the formation of two seperate countries, ...

Fact: in 1948, the Jews declared the state of Israel, the Palestinians refused to declare their own state.

Fact: in 1948, Palestinians rejected UN resolution calling for two states.

Fact: in 1948, after the Jews declared the state of Israel, Palestinians declared war on Israel.

Fact: Having signed no peace treaty, Palestinians have been at war with Israel since 1948.

Fact: Israel has been defending itself for the last 66 years, a right that every country has.

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20-08-2014, 03:04 PM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
(20-08-2014 04:08 AM)zaybu Wrote:  
(18-08-2014 01:24 AM)Youkay Wrote:  ...
The solution to this problem, as the UN agrees for 50 years now, is the formation of two seperate countries, ...

Fact: in 1948, the Jews declared the state of Israel, the Palestinians refused to declare their own state.

Fact: in 1948, Palestinians rejected UN resolution calling for two states.

Fact: in 1948, after the Jews declared the state of Israel, Palestinians declared war on Israel.

Fact: Having signed no peace treaty, Palestinians have been at war with Israel since 1948.

Fact: Israel has been defending itself for the last 66 years, a right that every country has.

You are assuming that Israel has a right to exist at all.

The Palestinians were under no moral or legal onus to accept the existence of the State of Israel. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

In the 66 years since 1948, both sides have done atrocious things, both sides have at various times blocked peace efforts, both sides have failed to come to any resolution.
There may not be one that is acceptable to both sides.

Israelis think that holy scripture gives them title to the land, Arabs think that it is an Islamic Waqf.

Neither side is right. And that is the problem.

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21-08-2014, 06:00 AM
RE: Israeli–Palestinian Conflict Documentaries?
(20-08-2014 03:04 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-08-2014 04:08 AM)zaybu Wrote:  Fact: in 1948, the Jews declared the state of Israel, the Palestinians refused to declare their own state.

Fact: in 1948, Palestinians rejected UN resolution calling for two states.

Fact: in 1948, after the Jews declared the state of Israel, Palestinians declared war on Israel.

Fact: Having signed no peace treaty, Palestinians have been at war with Israel since 1948.

Fact: Israel has been defending itself for the last 66 years, a right that every country has.

You are assuming that Israel has a right to exist at all.

And which country on this planet has a right to exist? Shouldn't the Roman Empire still exist? You're tackling this issue from the wrong end. Countries have appeared and disappeared throughout time.

Quote:The Palestinians were under no moral or legal onus to accept the existence of the State of Israel. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

Well if they want to continue this 66-year long war, then don't come to mama and cry. You deserve every misery this war brings.

Quote:In the 66 years since 1948, both sides have done atrocious things, both sides have at various times blocked peace efforts, both sides have failed to come to any resolution.

Yep, war is ugly.


Quote:There may not be one that is acceptable to both sides.

It's too bad considering that if the Palestinians had chosen in 1948 to live side by side with the Israelis, today they would be at peace, and interfaith marriage might be a normal thing to do.

Quote:Israelis think that holy scripture gives them title to the land, Arabs think that it is an Islamic Waqf.

Both are wrong on this issue.

Quote:Neither side is right. And that is the problem.

I think we have to stop asking who is right, and start accepting the reality that Israelis are not going anywhere and the Palestinians are not going anywhere, and the armed struggle has to stop. Only then can a peace treaty be a possibility.

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