It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
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17-03-2016, 09:52 PM
It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
So this is something that I remember from the last conversation I had with my pastor before I came out as an atheist to my family (I don't know if I can call him my "former" pastor, as I'm still technically a church member until they figure out that I'm a godless sinner and excommunicate me). I believe we were discussing the concept of hell as it's set up in (non-universalist) Christianity, such that anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus/the Bible/etc is eternally damned. I made the comment that I didn't think this was fair and that I was uncomfortable/didn't like believing in a god that would operate that sort of a system. His response was essentially that my own feelings about the matter were inconsequential since this was the way that it was.
Years later, having forgotten much of the rest of the conversation (it was two mind-twisting, terrifying hours in a coffee shop; I've blocked a lot out), I'm still rather dogged by this concept. It is true that a lot of things are simply true and the way I feel about them doesn't matter. Yet, applying that idea to this situation just seems wrong somehow. Do you guys agree? Or can anyone maybe clarify the situation for me? I don't know what to think about it at this point.
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17-03-2016, 10:35 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(17-03-2016 09:52 PM)debna27 Wrote:  So this is something that I remember from the last conversation I had with my pastor before I came out as an atheist to my family (I don't know if I can call him my "former" pastor, as I'm still technically a church member until they figure out that I'm a godless sinner and excommunicate me). I believe we were discussing the concept of hell as it's set up in (non-universalist) Christianity, such that anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus/the Bible/etc is eternally damned. I made the comment that I didn't think this was fair and that I was uncomfortable/didn't like believing in a god that would operate that sort of a system. His response was essentially that my own feelings about the matter were inconsequential since this was the way that it was.
Years later, having forgotten much of the rest of the conversation (it was two mind-twisting, terrifying hours in a coffee shop; I've blocked a lot out), I'm still rather dogged by this concept. It is true that a lot of things are simply true and the way I feel about them doesn't matter. Yet, applying that idea to this situation just seems wrong somehow. Do you guys agree? Or can anyone maybe clarify the situation for me? I don't know what to think about it at this point.

Just ask him if his god is SO stupid, he wouldn't know if you said you believed, but really didn't.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-03-2016, 12:06 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
Look it's perfectly true that something can be true without regard for our feelings. That's half the problem Christees have with science. They don't *want* it to contradict their book. The other half of the problem is opportunistic bastards like Ken Ham taking advantage of other people's cognitive dissonance. But ol' pastor o' thine is asserting that X is true when there's no evidence for the same.

Anyway if God's such a twisted fuck then he can fuck off Smile

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-03-2016, 01:00 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
Sure, truth does not care about feelings but nothing points to hell being something more than thing unsuccessfully used to scare believers into behaving how church wants.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-03-2016, 01:46 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
Quote:His response was essentially that my own feelings about the matter were inconsequential since this was the way that it was

It is true that the reality around us doesnt care if we like it or if we like it to be real or whatever. However saying god and hell exit is not a demonstration of actual existence, but just a claim.

Quote:It is true that a lot of things are simply true and the way I feel about them doesn't matter

The same rule applies to "truths" (i wont dive now into defining them). Something is true, no matter who thinks if its true or if this person likes it to be true.

Now ask your Pastor to demostrate that god, hell, etc do exist. Not just some contorted argument, logic or whatnot ("It would be logically consistent that god exists" etc). Ask him to show that god and hell do actually and factually exist. If he can do this, then it doesnt matter what anybody on this planet thinks about the fact: God and hell do exist.

I however doubt that he can provide anything remotely resembling evidence to support his claim.
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18-03-2016, 05:11 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(17-03-2016 09:52 PM)debna27 Wrote:  So this is something that I remember from the last conversation I had with my pastor before I came out as an atheist to my family (I don't know if I can call him my "former" pastor, as I'm still technically a church member until they figure out that I'm a godless sinner and excommunicate me). I believe we were discussing the concept of hell as it's set up in (non-universalist) Christianity, such that anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus/the Bible/etc is eternally damned. I made the comment that I didn't think this was fair and that I was uncomfortable/didn't like believing in a god that would operate that sort of a system. His response was essentially that my own feelings about the matter were inconsequential since this was the way that it was.
Years later, having forgotten much of the rest of the conversation (it was two mind-twisting, terrifying hours in a coffee shop; I've blocked a lot out), I'm still rather dogged by this concept. It is true that a lot of things are simply true and the way I feel about them doesn't matter. Yet, applying that idea to this situation just seems wrong somehow. Do you guys agree? Or can anyone maybe clarify the situation for me? I don't know what to think about it at this point.

He didn't even attempt to show what he believed was true and jumped right to the idea that it's true regardless of what you believe.

He got the cart before the horse, so put a dunce cap on him and give him a failing grade.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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18-03-2016, 05:24 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
We have essentially proven all religions to be bullshit, so stop worrying.

Whether there's a creator we don't know about tho... Nobody knows!
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18-03-2016, 06:08 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
It is correct that the truth of whether something exists or not does not rely on how anybody feels about it. It is also correct that the existence or non-existence of something does not rely on what anybody claims without good evidence. Your pastor got the first part right but likely doesn't understand the second part.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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18-03-2016, 07:29 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
He is right truth is truth, but what he was presenting was far from the truth whether he believed it or not. Proving his point.
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18-03-2016, 08:31 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2016 09:33 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(17-03-2016 09:52 PM)debna27 Wrote:  So this is something that I remember from the last conversation I had with my pastor before I came out as an atheist to my family (I don't know if I can call him my "former" pastor, as I'm still technically a church member until they figure out that I'm a godless sinner and excommunicate me). I believe we were discussing the concept of hell as it's set up in (non-universalist) Christianity, such that anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus/the Bible/etc is eternally damned. I made the comment that I didn't think this was fair and that I was uncomfortable/didn't like believing in a god that would operate that sort of a system. His response was essentially that my own feelings about the matter were inconsequential since this was the way that it was.
Years later, having forgotten much of the rest of the conversation (it was two mind-twisting, terrifying hours in a coffee shop; I've blocked a lot out), I'm still rather dogged by this concept. It is true that a lot of things are simply true and the way I feel about them doesn't matter. Yet, applying that idea to this situation just seems wrong somehow. Do you guys agree? Or can anyone maybe clarify the situation for me? I don't know what to think about it at this point.

It is a little difficult to explain, but when he said this he was actually contradicting his own worldview's basic premises. Statements like "it's true whether you like it or not" or "wishing doesn't make it so" are true because of a principle known as the primacy of existence. This is the principle that the objects of consciousness (the things that we are aware of) exists and are what they are *independent* of anyone's conscious activity such as wishing, liking, preferring, fearing, demanding, and imagining. Every act of consciousness has two things, a subject (the consciousness) and an object. There is a relationship between the two and it is not a relationship of equals. The objects hold primacy. This fact is directly observable. We don't need to prove it or infer it. This orientation obtains in every observable type of consciousness whether it is man's, a squirrel's, a frog's or a cat's. Furthermore it is contextually fixed. The subject and the object can not switch places. The primacy of existence is the fundamental principle of objectivity. It's where we get the concept.

Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point. This is the principle that the objects of consciousness are *dependent* upon and conform to the activity of a consciousness. In essence, theism holds that wishing does make it so. It affirms that everything was created by an act of consciousness, exists because of it, is maintained by it and can be altered by it. It's pure metaphysical subjectivism. Subjectivism is the principle that the subject of consciousness has primacy over its objects, that they conform to it's wishing, wanting, preferring, liking, demanding, praying, etc.

So when he says things like "it doesn't matter whether you like it, it only matters if it's true, he's affirming that truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence. In doing so he refutes his own beliefs. If truth rests exclusively on the primacy of existence then his worldview is incompatible with truth. Of course, he has no idea he's doing this because he doesn't know his own worldview's basic principles. It's a scary thing but I would go so far as to say that there is not a Christian alive who knows what the issue of metaphysical primacy is and what view of it his religion takes, unless he has been taught by a non-Christian. In my experience theists don't want to deal with the issue at all. They want to change the subject real fast or attempt to blow it off as not important (see my interaction with Call of the Wild in my thread Who Created the Supernatural) But even though they don't *want* to deal with it, it is there hiding at the bottom of their worldview, like a bomb placed to bring down an old, derelict building, that will destroy it at its foundation if only this contradiction is pointed out.

So the next time a Christian says it's true whether you like it or not, point out that he is borrowing from a non-Christian philosophy in order to make this statement, that Christianity holds that wishing does make it so, that if one has the faith of a mustard seed, he can say to the mountain move and it will move. I see Christians stealing from my philosophy, the only philosophy which formally and explicitly recognizes that the objects of consciousness hold metaphysical primacy over the subject of consciousness, and I call them out on it. To date not one of them can answer my charge. That's because it's true!

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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