It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
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18-03-2016, 09:43 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 08:31 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point.

No, our starting point is the existence of God and the creation is evidence of his existence. The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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18-03-2016, 10:13 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
Quote:The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

How do you know?
Do you have examples of universes without a god, which fail to develop things "too complex", to contrast our universe with?
What is the threshold of complexity for a god to be necessary to have created it?
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18-03-2016, 10:45 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:31 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point.

No, our starting point is the existence of God and the creation is evidence of his existence. The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

That is your ignorant opinion. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-03-2016, 10:51 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:31 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point.

No, our starting point is the existence of God and the creation is evidence of his existence. The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

So who created god? Also wasn't he too complex to came into existence without even greater god?

Educate yourself - Lawrence Krauss A Universe from Nothing: Why There Is Something Rather than Nothing could be helpful in that regard.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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18-03-2016, 11:08 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:31 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point.

No, our starting point is the existence of God and the creation is evidence of his existence. The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

Isn't God a form of consciousness? Or is he not a conscious being?
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18-03-2016, 11:33 AM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:31 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point.

No, our starting point is the existence of God and the creation is evidence of his existence. The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

That's just another way of affirming the primacy of consciousness, because you affirm that your God is a conscious being which created everything distinct from itself by an act of conscious will. Your God spoke, according to the story, and poof, the universe came to be.

Is your God conscious? If yes what is the relationship between your god as conscious subject and any objects of its consciousness? Do the objects of its consciousness conform to its will or do they exist independently of your God's conscious activity?

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The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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18-03-2016, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2016 04:58 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:31 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point.

No, our starting point is the existence of God and the creation is evidence of his existence. The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

And by the way, the existence of God is not your actual starting point because "God" is not conceptually irreducible. It rests on prior concepts. Your actual conceptually irreducible starting point is consciousness. And on your view a consciousness created reality by an act of conscious will so you do begin with the primacy of consciousness and therefore you affirm metaphysical subjectivism. I however begin with the objects of consciousness and affirm metaphysical objectivism. I'm happy to let reality be the judge of which of us has the correct starting point.

In fact in order to claim your God exists, you must assume the truth of my starting point, the axioms existence, consciousness and identity. Do you not claim that your God exists and is conscious and do you not claim that your God is itself and not something else? You see you can't escape from the axioms but the content of your claim denies these same axioms and their corollary, the primacy of existence. So each and every time you claim your God exists you use my starting point, secretly counting on it's truth while denying its truth. That's not a very good start to a philosophy that proposes to explain reality. If you begin with a contradiction how can your worldview be true?

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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18-03-2016, 12:39 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 10:13 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
Quote:The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

How do you know?
Do you have examples of universes without a god, which fail to develop things "too complex", to contrast our universe with?
What is the threshold of complexity for a god to be necessary to have created it?

This is an excellent point. If the universe is too complex to not require a creator, this would imply that at some lesser level of complexity, the univers could exist without a creator. This seems very ad hoc and arbitrary.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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18-03-2016, 04:17 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(17-03-2016 09:52 PM)debna27 Wrote:  So this is something that I remember from the last conversation I had with my pastor before I came out as an atheist to my family (I don't know if I can call him my "former" pastor, as I'm still technically a church member until they figure out that I'm a godless sinner and excommunicate me). I believe we were discussing the concept of hell as it's set up in (non-universalist) Christianity, such that anyone who doesn't believe in God/Jesus/the Bible/etc is eternally damned. I made the comment that I didn't think this was fair and that I was uncomfortable/didn't like believing in a god that would operate that sort of a system. His response was essentially that my own feelings about the matter were inconsequential since this was the way that it was.
Years later, having forgotten much of the rest of the conversation (it was two mind-twisting, terrifying hours in a coffee shop; I've blocked a lot out), I'm still rather dogged by this concept. It is true that a lot of things are simply true and the way I feel about them doesn't matter. Yet, applying that idea to this situation just seems wrong somehow. Do you guys agree? Or can anyone maybe clarify the situation for me? I don't know what to think about it at this point.

I would agree that facts are facts whether you like them or not but since your pastor can't demonstrate that his God is real or that Hell is a real place how can you form a real opinion of it? And if you decide it's wrong to send anyone there can he really say "It doesn't matter?" You can just say "Well, you believe Hell is a real place and people do deserve to go there and that doesn't matter because it's not real." Any beliefs he holds about the spiritual world doesn't matter since it's all made up anyway but how we all decide to react to it does matter especially if it effects how you treat other people.

But honestly would anyone like to be invited to a party where it's going to be so fun and great but you know there are people in the basement being tortured while it's happening? Would you feel good about going? Of course not, no good person would agree to that, but that's the whole premise of Heaven/Hell, "Let's all live in a paradise and be perfectly, blissfully happy while billions of souls are suffering, yay!" You would have to be crazy not to dismiss that and to speak up about it and that does matter, having the moral high ground always matters.

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18-03-2016, 04:26 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:31 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point.

No, our starting point is the existence of God and the creation is evidence of his existence. The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

No, your starting point is the presumption of the existence of God. The rest is based on that presumption...there's no proof other than that you can't imagine things any other way.

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