It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
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18-03-2016, 04:31 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 08:31 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Theism affirms the opposite principle, the primacy of consciousness, at it's starting point.

No, our starting point is the existence of God and the creation is evidence of his existence. The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

Even if it was true that the universe is all the proof we need that a God/Intelligent Designer/Wizard created it how do you know it was one specific God? You can't say the Bible because it's just an old book, what tangible proof do you have that can be observed?

There are many old stories/books that relate tales of creators, how do you know it's not Brahma or Atum? Until you have something that says "Our universe was designed and this was the being that designed it." literally everything you say will be pure speculation and based on "feelings" like "God loves me." Ok , that's nice but where is the proof? Don't have any? You just got the universe and our planet as evidence, ok, I could use the same evidence and say "Captain Crunch created the universe, you want proof? He loves me, I feel this in my heart and just look at the universe, clearly someone made it, and it was Captain Horatio Magellan Crunch." See how silly that sounds?

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18-03-2016, 05:03 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

Luckily for us the universe is not limited by the bounds of your understanding.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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18-03-2016, 05:08 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 05:03 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(18-03-2016 09:43 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The universe we observe, and especially the life that exists in it, is too complex to have come into existence without God.

Luckily for us the universe is not limited by the bounds of your understanding.

Thank God.

#sigh
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18-03-2016, 07:00 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
I've been trying to keep up with this thread but it's kind of hard to reply from my phone. Now that I'm at my computer, I just wanted to thank true scotsman for the very clear and informative explanation of primacy of consciousness vs primacy of existence. You're reminding me why I had so much fun minoring in philosophy, and how much I wish I had paid more attention/took more classes in it.
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18-03-2016, 07:21 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 07:00 PM)debna27 Wrote:  I've been trying to keep up with this thread but it's kind of hard to reply from my phone. Now that I'm at my computer, I just wanted to thank true scotsman for the very clear and informative explanation of primacy of consciousness vs primacy of existence. You're reminding me why I had so much fun minoring in philosophy, and how much I wish I had paid more attention/took more classes in it.

You are most welcome.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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18-03-2016, 07:48 PM
RE: It doesn't matter if you like this belief, it only matters if it's true!
(18-03-2016 07:00 PM)debna27 Wrote:  I've been trying to keep up with this thread but it's kind of hard to reply from my phone. Now that I'm at my computer, I just wanted to thank true scotsman for the very clear and informative explanation of primacy of consciousness vs primacy of existence. You're reminding me why I had so much fun minoring in philosophy, and how much I wish I had paid more attention/took more classes in it.

You might find this blog very interesting reading. The author has written extensively on this issue. In fact I think that no one has written more on this issue than the author of this blog, who is named Dawson Bethrick. I had an understanding of metaphysical primacy before I stumbled across his blog, but he has a gift for making this and other issues really clear and understandable. At the bottom of the blog entry I linked to above are links to other blog entries of his that deal with this issue. The comments sections can be a real hoot to read. Watch as theists try to refute the primacy of existence and just get destroyed. C.L bolt, Paul Manata, Dustin Segars and many others hit and bounce hard and it is highly entertaining reading.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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