"It's just how I was raised."
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05-10-2013, 03:51 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(04-10-2013 11:51 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If someone doesn't want to hire black people and you force them to hire black people, its okay to force your beliefs on them cause your beliefs are the correct ones right? Other people make policy decisions all the time and by letting them do so we limit our own freedom.

I don't have a problem with your position that is not okay to force your beliefs on people as long as you do it across the board. In fact that is my opinion. Marriage laws, anti-discrimination laws, etc....all that stuff should just go away because it is one group using the rule of law to force their beliefs on others.

Slight of hand argument again, nice to see you! Seriously, forcing a belief on everyone and requiring an establishment that is supported by tax dollars to not discriminate is NOT the same thing.

The KKK is still an organization, imbecile. They still have rallies and I'm pretty sure they don't let in black people. But, a KKK owned business - if supporte by the tax dollars in that community - must allow for black employees.

Beliefs and discrimination are two different things, as I pointed out the last time you made this arguement. You are free to hate whomever you want, but you are not free to discriminate. Period. Now, if you wanna make an argument, learn the distinction between words.
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05-10-2013, 03:56 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(01-10-2013 08:25 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Not recognizing something does not mean you are free to discriminate. Acting in the hypothetical scenario regarding Heathcare, that falls into discrimination. You are free to offer healthcare to everyone or no one.(Obama care excluded from this hypothetical) Offer it to full time employees and not to part time. That's your right. But you can't offer it to some full timers and some part timers, thats discrimination.

You are still free not to recognize it in your daily life (refusing to refer to mike's husband as "husband") or to refuse to socialize, as long as it falls under your individual liberty. The moment you intrude on someone else's liberties, then it's illegal. So your hypothetical scenario is....limited in applicability

Heywood - in case you missed this the last time.
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05-10-2013, 04:13 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(05-10-2013 03:56 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(01-10-2013 08:25 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Not recognizing something does not mean you are free to discriminate. Acting in the hypothetical scenario regarding Heathcare, that falls into discrimination. You are free to offer healthcare to everyone or no one.(Obama care excluded from this hypothetical) Offer it to full time employees and not to part time. That's your right. But you can't offer it to some full timers and some part timers, thats discrimination.

You are still free not to recognize it in your daily life (refusing to refer to mike's husband as "husband") or to refuse to socialize, as long as it falls under your individual liberty. The moment you intrude on someone else's liberties, then it's illegal. So your hypothetical scenario is....limited in applicability

Heywood - in case you missed this the last time.

Why am I free to offer health care to everyone or no one? Why can't I pay for the health care of the people I choose and refrain from others?

I should be free to offer health care to the Saad's four wives if I want to, or to offer health care to none of his wives because I don't recognize polygamy as a valid marriage.

Do I have to offer health care to one of his wives? If so then I am discriminating against the other 3. Can't have that can we.....Now you might fix that by coming in and saying that a person can only have one spouse. But really what gives you the right to say that? If you can say a person can only have one spouse, then why can't I say a person's spouse must be a member of the opposite sex? Why is your discrimination better than mine?
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05-10-2013, 04:27 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(05-10-2013 03:51 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Slight of hand argument again, nice to see you! Seriously, forcing a belief on everyone and requiring an establishment that is supported by tax dollars to not discriminate is NOT the same thing.

The KKK is still an organization, imbecile. They still have rallies and I'm pretty sure they don't let in black people. But, a KKK owned business - if supporte by the tax dollars in that community - must allow for black employees.

Beliefs and discrimination are two different things, as I pointed out the last time you made this arguement. You are free to hate whomever you want, but you are not free to discriminate. Period. Now, if you wanna make an argument, learn the distinction between words.

Cathym, first I forgive you for calling me an imbecile. I was hoping you would take the high road with me and drop these petty insults.

Second the way the laws are written is businesses can't discriminate based on the number of employees. If I have 4 employees, I can tell a black person I won't hire them just because they are black. If they sue me they will lose because the anti discrimination law doesn't kick in unless I have 15 employees.

EEOC Website - look at the left hand side of the page

But the only reason I am not free to discriminate if I had more than 15 employees, is because one group of people forced their beliefs upon me. Somehow they magically decided that it okay to discriminate if you have less than 15 employees, but if you have more than that....then its evil.
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05-10-2013, 05:02 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
You misunderstood. It's not that under 15 employees you are free to discriminate, you would lose a case if they could prove that the reason you didn't hire someone was because they were black. It's that under 15 employees, it's harder to prove discrimination. Ie, not enough employees to be diverse to begin with (family owned and operated, etc).

And again, discrimination is not a belief. You are free to disassociate yourself from blacks or homosexuals all you want. But running a business that is supported by tax dollars, you can't force your belief's on the tax payers. That's why church and state is separate.
Hobby lobby is getting fined and will be used for discrimination.

"
Craft store chain Hobby Lobby is facing fines of perhaps 1.3 million dollars per day for noncompliance, after refusing to obey the rules of the new law. - See more at: http://thewarylemming.com/hobby-lobby-ob...6NYjY.dpuf"

This type of situation, in part, is exactly what the new law set out to prevent – discrimination against an employee at the hands of an employer (or insurer).

Hobby Lobby’s owners, the evangelical Christian Green family, want to impose their personal religious beliefs on each and every one of their 13,000 employees.

-

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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05-10-2013, 06:27 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
Heywood - my use of the word imbecile is a higher brow way of conveying my extreme frustration with every.single.post you make.

Its extremely unlikely example of the saad wanting employment with your establishment.

I better example is this: a company that offers coverage for domestic partner relationship, but only heterosexual ones. Or only white heterosexual relationship.

Arguing that polygamy and Same sex marriage is the same is again, two completely different and unrelated arguments.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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05-10-2013, 06:29 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
Perhaps this is a better resource.

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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05-10-2013, 06:34 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(05-10-2013 06:27 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Heywood - my use of the word imbecile is a higher brow way of conveying my extreme frustration with every.single.post you make.

I were to call you a cunt, that would be a higher brow way of conveying my extreme frustration with every.single.post you make....right?

Wrong!

If I call you a cunt its an insult. If you call me an imbecile its an insult. This shouldn't be up for debate.

You chose the low road....but I forgive you for it.
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05-10-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(02-09-2013 12:04 AM)BrokenQuill92 Wrote:  "It's just how I was raised." Since moving to Tennessee this an excuse I've heard over and over again for Christian bigotry. They seem to think this excuses and explains everything, and I don't get it.

Supporting one's bigotry with whatever excuse might seem acceptable, is irresponsible but it also seems to be a resignation. Maybe they feel trapped and unable to control their own life and therefore feel they have no ability to change. I'm just speculating there because I'm sure the situation is quite complex.

I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with being a christee or theist per se, I think it's more an excuse for anyone who is insecure.

There might be an insecurity of not fitting into the life they've always known - even if that life is abusive, it's still their life and it's all they know. It bespeaks an insular life and perspective.

The excuse "It's just how I was raised.", is a psychological reinforcement of only what one knows and continuously helps to build an acceptable wall that resists change. It doesn't make one "right" according to everyone else but, it doesn't make one "wrong", either.

But... it can make others think that that person is a backward asshole who can't get their shit together and grow up. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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05-10-2013, 01:20 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(05-10-2013 06:29 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Perhaps this is a better resource.

http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/qanda.html

Open your link, scroll down to the section titled "Employers and entities covered by EEO laws". First paragraph reads:

Quote:Title VII, the ADA, and GINA cover all private employers, state and local governments, and education institutions that employ 15 or more individuals. These laws also cover private and public employment agencies, labor organizations, and joint labor management committees controlling apprenticeship and training.

If you have less than 15 employees you are not covered under these laws. You may, however, be covered by some state statues.
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