"It's just how I was raised."
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27-09-2013, 04:59 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(27-09-2013 03:51 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Uh, Christians are - on a whole - more bigoted than atheists. Their religion compells them to be. Slavery, homosexuality, etc.

You don't here atheists talking about the sanctity if marriage...

Bigotry is intolerance of people who hold different opinions then oneself. The fact that you(not you specifically) call people homophobes because they disagree with your views on marriage rights for gays shows you are bigoted. Instead of tolerating people of a different opinion, you demonize and ridicule them.

As a group, this forum is much more bigoted than average.....just my opinion of course.

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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27-09-2013, 07:21 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
Uh no. Bigotry is denying someone equal rights. Rights that no one can deny. basic. human. rights. It's not simply disliking a person that is different from them. And it's not opinions that are different, it's the hatred and oppression of entire groups of people based on socioeconomic, racial, enthnic differences based on stereotypes.

Homophobia is not a "difference of opinion", its a hatred of that person, the ridicule and the oppression of those people. Callin someone a homophobe does not in turn make me a bigot anymore than calling someone that discriminates against black people a racist makes me a bigot.

That's seriously the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.

I have no problem with people not liking homosexuals. That's fine. When it becomes a problem is when they start denying the rights of those people to love whom they wish and have their relationship as legal as a heterosexual couple.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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27-09-2013, 08:13 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
BQ,

I grew up in MT but spent 7 years in Nashville, and another 2 years in Memphis. Currently residing in another southern state and I feel your pain. Thinking seriously of relocating to the NW.
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28-09-2013, 02:19 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(27-09-2013 07:21 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Uh no. Bigotry is denying someone equal rights. Rights that no one can deny. basic. human. rights. It's not simply disliking a person that is different from them. And it's not opinions that are different, it's the hatred and oppression of entire groups of people based on socioeconomic, racial, enthnic differences based on stereotypes.

Homophobia is not a "difference of opinion", its a hatred of that person, the ridicule and the oppression of those people. Callin someone a homophobe does not in turn make me a bigot anymore than calling someone that discriminates against black people a racist makes me a bigot.

That's seriously the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.

I have no problem with people not liking homosexuals. That's fine. When it becomes a problem is when they start denying the rights of those people to love whom they wish and have their relationship as legal as a heterosexual couple.

You need to open up a dictionary and look up the word bigotry.

Vosur, Anjele, Hanoff.....have you learned nothing in my absence?
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28-09-2013, 03:33 AM
 
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(27-09-2013 07:21 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I have no problem with people not liking homosexuals. That's fine. When it becomes a problem is when they start denying the rights of those people to love whom they wish and have their relationship as legal as a heterosexual couple.

In 2012, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that same-sex marriages are not a right.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...tance.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...uling.html

Therefore, whether a country will legalize them, is at its discretion.
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28-09-2013, 03:43 AM
 
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(27-09-2013 07:21 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Homophobia is not a "difference of opinion", its a hatred of that person, the ridicule and the oppression of those people. Callin someone a homophobe does not in turn make me a bigot anymore than calling someone that discriminates against black people a racist makes me a bigot.

"Homophobia" is a propagandistic term, used to silence the opposition in a debate. Phobia is a condition, and since you won't find "homophobia" on the list of those conditions, it becomes obvious how dishonest it is. When you call someone a "homophobe," you imply that your opponent in a debate has an anxiety disorder, i.e. you use the tactic called "poisoning the well." Furthermore, that term is meaningless: "homo" + "phobia" would mean "fear of the same," or of "equal," which makes no sense.

You mention racism (a rather broad and ambiguous term, but never mind), and in the same sentence you imply that only discrimination against black people is racism. Isn't that "racist" too? Consider
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28-09-2013, 04:52 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
Philo, homophobia is just a word. As it is used currently it's meaning has evolved beyond the "fear of homosexuals" connotation. Now it is applied to those who propagate hate against homosexuals. There is no dishonesty here. The word meaning has changed, is all.

And she didn't imply that discriminating only against black people was racism, she listed it as an example of racism.
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28-09-2013, 05:30 AM
 
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(28-09-2013 04:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  Philo, homophobia is just a word. As it is used currently it's meaning has evolved beyond the "fear of homosexuals" connotation. Now it is applied to those who propagate hate against homosexuals. There is no dishonesty here. The word meaning has changed, is all.

The problem with "homophobia," is that, like all other label words, it's broad and ambiguous, so it can be used in many other contexts beside hate. For instance, some will say that merely opposing gay marriage is "homophobia." And people have started to fear speaking in public about those issues, fearing that they would be labelled as "homophobes." The reason why I claimed that using such words is dishonest, is because it silences a debate. Person A can present a well supported argument, while their opponent B can just shout "racist," "sexist," "homophobe," without ever responding to the argument, hoping that A would withdraw in shame or fear. Even though the argument presented had nothing to do with race, sex or sexual orientation. A good example would be criticizing an official who happens to be black, a woman, or a homosexual. Person A could have been criticizing the policies of that official (something legitimate), but the opponent B can simply launch a label and hope it intimidates person A. And that's not good for free speech and expression. That's all I wanted to say.

(28-09-2013 04:52 AM)morondog Wrote:  And she didn't imply that discriminating only against black people was racism, she listed it as an example of racism.

You may be right. But as a white man, I feel uneasy when almost every example of racism, directly or indirectly, points the finger at my race. I hope you understand.
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28-09-2013, 05:48 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(28-09-2013 05:30 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  For instance, some will say that merely opposing gay marriage is "homophobia."
*I* will say that... What else is it, other than a form of hate, to deny someone the right to legal status for a union, on the basis of something which affects solely them and their partner ?

Quote:Person A can present a well supported argument, while their opponent B can just shout "racist," "sexist," "homophobe," without ever responding to the argument, hoping that A would withdraw in shame or fear.
It's true. But people make strawmen out of many things. Point out the strawman. If it *is* a well-supported argument then it will stand on its own merits.

Quote: Even though the argument presented had nothing to do with race, sex or sexual orientation. A good example would be criticizing an official who happens to be black, a woman, or a homosexual. Person A could have been criticizing the policies of that official (something legitimate), but the opponent B can simply launch a label and hope it intimidates person A. And that's not good for free speech and expression. That's all I wanted to say.
Well, but it doesn't change the fact that racism, sexism, and homophobia are real issues. Sure, they can be used for grandstanding.

Quote:You may be right. But as a white man, I feel uneasy when almost every example of racism, directly or indirectly, points the finger at my race. I hope you understand.
I don't really. I'm a white man. And yes indeed, the idea of one race being superior to another... well, at least in the 20th century, that idea was mainly propagated by and of benefit to "white" men - those of European descent. It's not like I've got a case of white guilt or anything. But there sure are a bunch of racist white guys around. And yes, there are plenty of people who're racist who're not white... just... I don't see examples of that too often. I do see 'em occasionally though.
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28-09-2013, 07:25 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(28-09-2013 03:33 AM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  In 2012, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that same-sex marriages are not a right.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...tance.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion...uling.html

Therefore, whether a country will legalize them, is at its discretion.

Whether or not a country is in sync with another is completely irrelevant. By denying someone that you allow to another as a right, ie, marriage, you are denying them based on their sex. If I am a woman who would like to marry another woman, you would be denying me that right for no other reason than the fact that I lack male gentiles.

There was once, a time, where one country fought to abolish slavery while another country allowed it. It takes time for social acceptability to expand. Spain took longer to abolish slavery than the US. Does that mean that during that "lag time" for lack to better words, that slavery was a matter of opinion and not a basic right?

However, I think its a more apt comparison to laws allowing for bi-racial marriage. The same concept applies, that it takes different advanced civilizations to get with the program. THat doesn't mean that while one country is lagging behind the other, that it only a matter of opinion.
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