"It's just how I was raised."
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-09-2013, 01:58 PM
 
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(29-09-2013 11:32 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Philo - you said you are not religious. My mistake. The way you are okay with discrimination of an entire population of people mirrors the behavior of a lot of religious people. I genuinely can't understand how you would be supportive of a culture that discriminates against an entire group of people based on an arbitrary concept. black and whites being "separate but equal" for example as an apt comparison to civil unions and marriages being "separate but equal". I also don't understand how you don't see this as discrimination. I honestly don't understand. You are, admittedly, the first atheist I've ever met who didn't support equal rights for everyone. Please help me understand where you are coming from personally. Surely you have the capacity for self reflection.

I would rather call myself an agnostic, but never mind. You asked a good question about my background, because I think it did play an important role of molding my beliefs into what they are.

I'm from a country that was attacked about 20 years ago. It was an invasion/rebellion, launched with a goal of taking away our lands and culturally assimilating us. Many of those who stood in the way of the invader were slaughtered, while women were raped. You've noticed that I'm from Europe - which makes it all the more surprising that something like that would happen there at the very end of the 20th century. But it did.

I was too young to remember the war, but there are several things that I've learned from it. First, I see many atheists downplay or even ridicule patriotism, seeing it as something backward or exclusivist. They consider themselves "citizens of the world." But this "world" didn't move a muscle while we were under attack. We the people of our nation saved ourselves - those in the country, and expats from abroad. I realized that while the "world" may not help you, your kin people just may. Second, proceeding from the first, I learned that the rights and freedoms we enjoy will not defend themselves. While we may have overcome the primordial, Darwinistic desire to expand and dominate, there are always those who haven't, in fact, there are those who are proud of it. Realizing that someone might be hating you so much that they'd slaughter you or rape you without feeling a shred of guilt - for a reason no other than that you exist, is not easy. But it's a good reason to cherish our culture, liberty, and nurture a healthy national unity.

I hope you now understand a bit more why it saddens me to see such low birth rates in my country and in most of European countries as well. In the long term, we're dying off. And who knows what might happen in the distant future - everything changes at all times, as you've admitted yourself. Maybe another culture will emerge, one that emphasized population expansion. What if it takes over the old continent as we know it, and its values won't be as libertarian as ours are, to put it mildly? This may not be easy for you to comprehend, since you're coming from the world's number 1 superpower, but my message is that we are in error when we think that the entire world is like us - seeking peace, prosperity and freedom.

I wouldn't want you to come to a conclusion that I advocate going "backwards" so to speak. All I want is for people to understand that "no man is an island," as the saying says, and that we heavily depend on each other even when we don't realize it. This is why I always ask for societal benefits of something new. OK, an individual might benefit from something, but what about the society, what about the nation? While personal liberties are of utmost importance, let's mind that we don't become alienated from each other and fall apart.

Why did I write all this? Well, from realizing that a nation is its population, and new population comes from heterosexual relationships, my thought is that they deserve a reward, a merit for the fact that they maintain a society by constantly renewing it. Even if that "merit" is just the name "marriage." You say that you don't understand how I don't see this as discrimination - well, I might have been a little desensitized since having bombs fall onto you from the sky is kind of worse than not being able to marry who you want, but I can at the same time say that I can't see how you don't think that renewal of the society doesn't deserve any special merit? If none of our ancestors had had children, today we'd be a footnote in history books of other peoples, those that would have left posterity. They'd be here, enjoying this unique life, while we wouldn't.

I'm all for understanding and dialogue with those who are different. If we are the majority, that doesn't mean we are oppressors. In fact, I support gay rights and I seek to understand those people, but everything that concerns a society as a whole demands a compromise. Is it really that much to demand at least an institution that merits the kind of relation that renews the society? Take civil unions, take adoption, common property, inheritance rights... But leave us at least the title "marriage." How could that possibly be unfair??
Quote this message in a reply
29-09-2013, 02:54 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
@Philosoraptor I am not too young to remember the war you are talking about. As you were too young to remember it, what you know about the war is what you are told about the war.
And...you should know this by now, what people tell you is not always the truth. Ad judging by your post, truth about the war is not what you are told.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-09-2013, 02:59 PM
 
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(29-09-2013 02:54 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  @Philosoraptor I am not too young to remember the war you are talking about. As you were too young to remember it, what you know about the war is what you are told about the war.
And...you should know this by now, what people tell you is not always the truth. Ad judging by your post, truth about the war is not what you are told.

Could you elaborate a bit on this last thing? You can do it via PM if you prefer.
Quote this message in a reply
29-09-2013, 03:55 PM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2013 04:07 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
I still don't understand what it is about someone else having what you have that diminishes it? Your behavior, and thought process, and I mean no disrespect, is immature. It's MY toy! He can't have the SAME toy!!

Also, you drawing an incorrect assumption based on your emotions that legalization of gay marriage equals less children. People will have children regardless of their situations if they want them. Infertile couples will spend exorbanent amounts of money to become pregnant and/or adopt. Conversely, couples that are fertile that do not want children will undergo surgical procedures to prohibit pregnancy. Gay couples will have children if they want them as well. Allowing gay marriage in no way leads to the conclusions you are drawing. I'll say that again. Allowing gay marriage in no way leads to the conclusions you are drawing.

Think about it this logically...denying a gay man the right to marry another man isn't going to compel him to marry a woman and reproduce. You are born gay. Allowing gay marriage doesn't prevent or encourage behavior.

Ironically, you are wrong about the decrease to the population. While there may be pockets of populations that are decreasing - that has more to do with the environment and economy than it does anything else. People have less children when the economy is bad. But that doesn't mean the world population is decreasing. As I said before, the rate of growth is not the same thing as growth

Also - rates of growth are not straight lines. They fluctuate. The decrease of the rate of our increase are good things.

As far as what happened in the war,I'm very appalled at that. The reality is, is that I have a very small way of knowing what goes in the world outside of the news coverage. If the news didn't report on it - how can I realistically learn about it. The war you are referencing - I am 30 now, which means I was probably a child then.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-09-2013, 04:16 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
So if homosexual couples contribute less to society by raising less children, it would be economically detrimental for the government to allow those couples access to marriage benefits?

Sounds legit.

Too bad everybody already has free basic healthcare here in Canada, we would totally save money by discriminating against the retirees.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes WeAreTheCosmos's post
29-09-2013, 04:46 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
"While personal liberties are of utmost importance, let's mind that we don't become alienated from each other and fall apart."

Ironically, by refusing homosexuals equal stance in their marriage, alienating is exactly what you are doing.....

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Cathym112's post
29-09-2013, 04:53 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(29-09-2013 04:16 PM)WeAreTheCosmos Wrote:  So if homosexual couples contribute less to society by raising less children, it would be economically detrimental for the government to allow those couples access to marriage benefits?

Sounds legit.

Too bad everybody already has free basic healthcare here in Canada, we would totally save money by discriminating against the retirees.

Yeah...and why stop with the retirees? Mentally handicapped ,physically disabled , gays obviously, jews , gipsies ...in fact, only tall blond people with blue eyes should have benefits , and they should have all the benefits...they should be the only ones allowed to reproduce... and soon we'll have..oh, wait.

. . . ................................ ......................................... . [Image: 2dsmnow.gif] Eat at Joe's
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-09-2013, 04:58 PM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
In regard to population growth, gay marriage is beneficial because it encourages same-sex couples to have children of their own through artificial fertilization or surrogacy. And it boosts adoption rates. If they didn't have the same rights and benefits they probably wouldn't have children at all, and be less likely to adopt.

With gay marriage, every benefit of traditional marriage is there. The only difference is that when it's two men, a third person has to have their baby, and when it's two women, both of them can have babies. That's it.

Gay marriage harms no one and is beneficial both economically and socially.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

[Image: ZcC2kGl.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Elesjei's post
30-09-2013, 01:27 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(29-09-2013 01:58 PM)Philosoraptor Wrote:  Why did I write all this? Well, from realizing that a nation is its population, and new population comes from heterosexual relationships, my thought is that they deserve a reward, a merit for the fact that they maintain a society by constantly renewing it. Even if that "merit" is just the name "marriage." You say that you don't understand how I don't see this as discrimination - well, I might have been a little desensitized since having bombs fall onto you from the sky is kind of worse than not being able to marry who you want, but I can at the same time say that I can't see how you don't think that renewal of the society doesn't deserve any special merit? If none of our ancestors had had children, today we'd be a footnote in history books of other peoples, those that would have left posterity. They'd be here, enjoying this unique life, while we wouldn't.

All the arguments for marriage rights for gays contain an implied assumption that gay marriage offers as much a benefit to society as heterosexual marriage. There really is no good reason to think this is the case. For it to be the case the benefits of both kinds of marriages would have to be exactly equal in the amount of benefit they provide to society.

Why should it be that the benefits of both kinds of marriage just happen to be exactly equal? Just because we want it to be? Well that is ludicrous. We can want God to exist too, but just wanting it isn't going to make it happen. God exist or He doesn't. Reality is what reality is and the procreative advantage of heterosexual unions adds a whole lot of societal utility. Because of that, society has good reason to place heterosexuality on a higher pedestal than homosexuality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
30-09-2013, 01:49 AM
RE: "It's just how I was raised."
(29-09-2013 04:58 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  In regard to population growth, gay marriage is beneficial because it encourages same-sex couples to have children of their own through artificial fertilization or surrogacy. And it boosts adoption rates. If they didn't have the same rights and benefits they probably wouldn't have children at all, and be less likely to adopt.

With gay marriage, every benefit of traditional marriage is there. The only difference is that when it's two men, a third person has to have their baby, and when it's two women, both of them can have babies. That's it.

Gay marriage harms no one and is beneficial both economically and socially.

Not true.

In the case of homosexuals, every instance of procreation is planned. For heterosexual couples, many if not most instances of procreation are unplanned.

When a couple take steps to completely plan every instance of procreation, they typically do not produce enough children to replace themselves. This is why you see fertility rates in countries where birth control is readily available so low that it doesn't sustain the population(population may continue to increase via immigration...like in the US...or it may plummet like it is doing in Japan). Happy surprises(unplanned pregnancy) go a long way in helping a population sustain itself. In a country like Japan, happy surprises are a good thing. In a country like Japan(whose population is plummeting), straight marriage are obviously superior to gay marriages because with gay marriage there is no chance of a happy surprise.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: