It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
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27-05-2014, 10:39 AM
It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
How do you deal with the line if argument that god gave us free will and we have chosen to be bad.
God = good
Us = bad children
It's silly For me it seems that any god would have programmed us differently as to avoid all the centuries of killing
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27-05-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
Prove God = Good, then we can talk.

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27-05-2014, 10:43 AM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
Well, one argument is that god is omniscient, meaning he or she supposedly knows everything that is and ever will be. So if the deity makes someone and knows full well the choices they will make in their life even before they do, the person doesn't really have free will. And if the person makes the wrong kind of choices, they will go to hell. This means god knew they would end up in hell in the first place.
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27-05-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
Even if we accept for granted that god gave us free will (which is an entirely different debate), what good is it?

We can break humanity down into three basic groups:

1) Some humans *know* that they MUST believe in Jesus or they will spend eternity suffering in a lake of fire. These people theoretically have free will to choose the lake of fire, but really, if you actually *know* that will happen, who would ever chose eternal damnation? Nobody. So for these people, free will is just an illusion.

2) Some humans live their entire lives without ever hearing about Jesus so cannot possibly know that they must believe in him and therefore are guaranteed to have an eternity of suffering in the lake of fire. While these people have free will, they don't have the freedom to choose to believe in something they've never heard of, so they are certainly doomed. So for these people, free will is no benefit.

(Some Christians believe that these people get a "get out of jail free" card and are allowed into heaven on a technicality, but while this changes their ultimate fate, it doesn't alter the fact that their free will played no part in this fate.)

3) Some humans have heard of Jesus but don't know, or don't believe, that they must believe in him to avoid the lake of fire. God is supposedly omniscient so he must know that these people will never believe. Sure, they have free will, but god never gave them a compelling reason to believe, and omniscient god knows it. Furthermore, omniscient god knows EXACTLY what it would take to convince each of these people to believe in Jesus and yet he chooses not to make the effort to convince these people - but for some reason he still insists on giving them souls that will inevitably burn in the lake of fire for eternity. Omniscient god *knows* that this will happen to every soul he puts in these people, but he does it anyway and all those souls suffer eternal damnation. So, for these people, free will is meaningless (as it pertains to their salvation).

So, regarding salvation vs. damnation, which one of these groups benefits from free will?

None of them.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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27-05-2014, 11:18 AM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
(27-05-2014 10:43 AM)ghostexorcist Wrote:  Well, one argument is that god is omniscient, meaning he or she supposedly knows everything that is and ever will be. So if the deity makes someone and knows full well the choices they will make in their life even before they do, the person doesn't really have free will. And if the person makes the wrong kind of choices, they will go to hell. This means god knew they would end up in hell in the first place.

Yeah that is pretty much the paradox.

If people have free will such that God cannot know their will, then god is not omniscient and he can't predict the actions of people. This makes a lot of scripture difficult to to understand, and in general christians are not keen on the idea. So yeah, the whole "God made earth to test people" idea is a logically flawed paradigm.
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27-05-2014, 11:49 AM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
[Image: dead-horse.gif]

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
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27-05-2014, 11:55 AM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
Freewill carries the implication that there was an alternative that couldve been taken by the individual that wouldve been preferable in this case. Having said that the freewill enthusiast is really only interested in getting the invisible man in the sky off the hook of responsibility over humanity. It's a PR trick. Logic and Empiricism wont win the argument with someone devoted to defending an imaginary friend.

“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.” ― Richard Pryor
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27-05-2014, 11:57 AM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
(27-05-2014 11:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  [Image: dead-horse.gif]

You missed a spot.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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27-05-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
(27-05-2014 10:39 AM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  How do you deal with the line if argument that god gave us free will and we have chosen to be bad.
God = good
Us = bad children
It's silly For me it seems that any god would have programmed us differently as to avoid all the centuries of killing

The most common answer I hear about this from the apologists is both:
  • We are allowed to be terrible because we have free will, and
  • We have free will so that God knows that we really love him and aren't just robots.
So, yes, the literal take home message here is that we are allowed to rape each other, because God wouldn't be able to tell if we really loved him unless we could rape someone but chose not to, and apparently God can't read minds.
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27-05-2014, 12:05 PM
RE: It's not god's fault, it's ours because we have free will
(27-05-2014 11:49 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  [Image: dead-horse.gif]

Its a 2000 year old religion. There are only dead horses.
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