It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
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28-06-2015, 03:18 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
I don't see a default as a bad turn right now. No, we don't "need" Europe. Europe is what has been happening to us the last few years.

Say we keep on with austerity. Do you honestly think we will EVER be able to live a decent life? What with all the corruption, tax evasion and money wasted? I'm sorry but I'm not willing to be paying extravagant amounts of money I don't have for the rest of my life JUST BECAUSE.

I'd rather live through a few years of poverty until my country is back on its feet. If all else fails, I can always leave. Plus, with a leftist ruling party we can always hope for the taxation of the Greek church. That's more than enough money for every Greek to live like a king.

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01-07-2015, 06:19 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
Rant rant rant.

So I was talking with my dad about how unfair it is for young people nowadays and the generations to come having to pay for a debt they didn't create themselves.

I made a comparison and said that in case of a debt of someone who dies, their children have the right to disclaim it, which makes sense, so why shouldn't it be the case now on a country level? He said "sure, but you get no inheritance then."

So that made me think. Is the right to a decent life an "inheritance"? Is it something that I have to pay for? It sure is something I should be grateful for, but isn't it also a right? Is it something I can only get through an eternal debt?

I never asked to get things for free. I never wanted expensive houses and luxury. I'm willing to work hard to make money and live my life as decently as possible, but there won't even be any such job.

I will have to sacrifice my dreams and for what reason? Because some people a few decades ago started electing corrupt politicians? How is that my fault? Why should I pay? I haven't found any reasonable answer to that. If Mrs. Merkel or Mr. Juncker or Mr. Dijsselbloem or any of those nice people could offer us an answer to that (instead of their incessant propaganda), yeah, that would be great.

It's started getting to me and I'm scared.

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01-07-2015, 06:41 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
(01-07-2015 06:19 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Rant rant rant.

So I was talking with my dad about how unfair it is for young people nowadays and the generations to come having to pay for a debt they didn't create themselves.

I made a comparison and said that in case of a debt of someone who dies, their children have the right to disclaim it, which makes sense, so why shouldn't it be the case now on a country level? He said "sure, but you get no inheritance then."

So that made me think. Is the right to a decent life an "inheritance"? Is it something that I have to pay for? It sure is something I should be grateful for, but isn't it also a right? Is it something I can only get through an eternal debt?

I never asked to get things for free. I never wanted expensive houses and luxury. I'm willing to work hard to make money and live my life as decently as possible, but there won't even be any such job.

I will have to sacrifice my dreams and for what reason? Because some people a few decades ago started electing corrupt politicians? How is that my fault? Why should I pay? I haven't found any reasonable answer to that. If Mrs. Merkel or Mr. Juncker or Mr. Dijsselbloem or any of those nice people could offer us an answer to that (instead of their incessant propaganda), yeah, that would be great.

It's started getting to me and I'm scared.

I must first say I know zilch about this and have only read a few things here and there over the last few years as stories hit the news. I have no vested position in this situation. However, when it comes to your understandable frustration for paying for the poor decisions and corruption of those empowered previously...my perspective is who else should pay for Greece's debt but Greece? How is it anyone else's problem? Why should Europe pay for Greece's debt without a payback agreement of some sort? If not the tax payers of Greece...then who?

Horrible situation to be in and I completely understand your fears and concerns. But if Greece created debt, and creditors covered the debt, and now Greece is unable to pay that loan payment per se....then who will?

"In economics, Austerity may be undertaken to demonstrate the government's fiscal discipline to their creditors and credit rating agencies by bringing revenues closer to expenditures."

I am not taking sides as I have no informed opinion, emotional vestment, or expertise in this area, but in my opinion a debt has been made, whether badly or not, and the debt was covered, thus the debt has to be repaid.

What do you propose as an alternative? Excuse my ignorant questions I am just curious. My knowledge in this area is limited and I know you are living it so can probably explain it to me better than google.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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01-07-2015, 08:33 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
(01-07-2015 06:41 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 06:19 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Rant rant rant.

So I was talking with my dad about how unfair it is for young people nowadays and the generations to come having to pay for a debt they didn't create themselves.

I made a comparison and said that in case of a debt of someone who dies, their children have the right to disclaim it, which makes sense, so why shouldn't it be the case now on a country level? He said "sure, but you get no inheritance then."

So that made me think. Is the right to a decent life an "inheritance"? Is it something that I have to pay for? It sure is something I should be grateful for, but isn't it also a right? Is it something I can only get through an eternal debt?

I never asked to get things for free. I never wanted expensive houses and luxury. I'm willing to work hard to make money and live my life as decently as possible, but there won't even be any such job.

I will have to sacrifice my dreams and for what reason? Because some people a few decades ago started electing corrupt politicians? How is that my fault? Why should I pay? I haven't found any reasonable answer to that. If Mrs. Merkel or Mr. Juncker or Mr. Dijsselbloem or any of those nice people could offer us an answer to that (instead of their incessant propaganda), yeah, that would be great.

It's started getting to me and I'm scared.

I must first say I know zilch about this and have only read a few things here and there over the last few years as stories hit the news. I have no vested position in this situation. However, when it comes to your understandable frustration for paying for the poor decisions and corruption of those empowered previously...my perspective is who else should pay for Greece's debt but Greece? How is it anyone else's problem? Why should Europe pay for Greece's debt without a payback agreement of some sort? If not the tax payers of Greece...then who?

Horrible situation to be in and I completely understand your fears and concerns. But if Greece created debt, and creditors covered the debt, and now Greece is unable to pay that loan payment per se....then who will?

"In economics, Austerity may be undertaken to demonstrate the government's fiscal discipline to their creditors and credit rating agencies by bringing revenues closer to expenditures."

I am not taking sides as I have no informed opinion, emotional vestment, or expertise in this area, but in my opinion a debt has been made, whether badly or not, and the debt was covered, thus the debt has to be repaid.

What do you propose as an alternative? Excuse my ignorant questions I am just curious. My knowledge in this area is limited and I know you are living it so can probably explain it to me better than google.

You are right, Greece created the debt and Greece should pay for it and I would gladly pay if:
-The measures were reasonable
-The money the government got was actually used to make the country better
-The European Commission accepted the fact that money was lost due to corruption and tried to seek for justice

No, I won't pay for the embezzlement and corruption of politicians elected while I was a child, I won't pay the money rich people didn't in taxes, I won't pay for the mistakes of others, I simply refuse to.

It is unfair to the countries and the people who paid because of our debt, but it is equally unjust and inhumane to destroy the lives of thousands of young people and children for what politicians did. I'm not saying Europe should pay. I'm saying that no one who is not at fault should pay.

And after all, it's not like I live a normal life and I'm too lazy to pay taxes. I'm unemployed and the state asks me to pay money in taxes every year, because they assume that since I'm alive, I MUST be spending money. They won't accept "I'm living with my parents and they feed me" as a justification. Do you think that's fair? Or do you think it is fair that I will probably live this only life I have struggling every day, not even being given the CHANCE to work?

I completely understand what you're saying and it's not right that this debt cannot be paid. But why should I or my children and their children pay for the acts of specific people who are not being brought to justice?

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01-07-2015, 04:12 PM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
(01-07-2015 08:33 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  
(01-07-2015 06:41 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I must first say I know zilch about this and have only read a few things here and there over the last few years as stories hit the news. I have no vested position in this situation. However, when it comes to your understandable frustration for paying for the poor decisions and corruption of those empowered previously...my perspective is who else should pay for Greece's debt but Greece? How is it anyone else's problem? Why should Europe pay for Greece's debt without a payback agreement of some sort? If not the tax payers of Greece...then who?

Horrible situation to be in and I completely understand your fears and concerns. But if Greece created debt, and creditors covered the debt, and now Greece is unable to pay that loan payment per se....then who will?

"In economics, Austerity may be undertaken to demonstrate the government's fiscal discipline to their creditors and credit rating agencies by bringing revenues closer to expenditures."

I am not taking sides as I have no informed opinion, emotional vestment, or expertise in this area, but in my opinion a debt has been made, whether badly or not, and the debt was covered, thus the debt has to be repaid.

What do you propose as an alternative? Excuse my ignorant questions I am just curious. My knowledge in this area is limited and I know you are living it so can probably explain it to me better than google.

You are right, Greece created the debt and Greece should pay for it and I would gladly pay if:
-The measures were reasonable
-The money the government got was actually used to make the country better
-The European Commission accepted the fact that money was lost due to corruption and tried to seek for justice

No, I won't pay for the embezzlement and corruption of politicians elected while I was a child, I won't pay the money rich people didn't in taxes, I won't pay for the mistakes of others, I simply refuse to.

It is unfair to the countries and the people who paid because of our debt, but it is equally unjust and inhumane to destroy the lives of thousands of young people and children for what politicians did. I'm not saying Europe should pay. I'm saying that no one who is not at fault should pay.

And after all, it's not like I live a normal life and I'm too lazy to pay taxes. I'm unemployed and the state asks me to pay money in taxes every year, because they assume that since I'm alive, I MUST be spending money. They won't accept "I'm living with my parents and they feed me" as a justification. Do you think that's fair? Or do you think it is fair that I will probably live this only life I have struggling every day, not even being given the CHANCE to work?

I completely understand what you're saying and it's not right that this debt cannot be paid. But why should I or my children and their children pay for the acts of specific people who are not being brought to justice?

I understand your frustration. Hopefully something gets worked out soon. From a neutral position, think of the frustration of the creditors as well......."thanks for the 1.2 billion (or whatever the amount was) euro bailout but our corrupt politicians blew it on hookers and yachts, prosecute them and dont hold the country accountable. Consider it a bad investment and call it a loss."

The problem with this theory is the creditors are out 1.2 billion euros (or whatever it was) and inevitably another country will need financial assistance from the creditors and I would think they would be ....reluctant to help. The ol burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice shame on me theory. No matter what, everyone is going to lose it seems, and it pains me that you and your family are in this situation. I truly hope it gets worked out somehow and you find your way to financial stability. Hug

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-07-2015, 04:33 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
My partner is Greek, he lives with me in the UK but his parents are still over in Athens, so while I am by no means an expert I am getting a daily run down. He takes the stance that this is not the Eurozone that has created this but Greece's mismanagement of itself over decades and those chickens would inevitably come home to roost. It's unfortunate that your generation is bearing the brunt of things you had no hand in and I see the same happening to the young in the UK. And no it is not fair, But I'm afraid anyone who says life is fair is lying, it isn't and never has been.

Many countries have been living outside of their means, the UK included and a few were doing it to the point of bankruptcy but that type of living can never be sustained indefinitely not on a personal level or a national level.

Cyprus was in a similar situation back in 2009 (I think it was 09) and it banks failed. But over time they have got their act together and are now recovering. I doubt that was easy and I'm sure many suffered but things have improved for many there now. Greece had the same opportunities and has had more concessions given to it than many of it's neighbouring counties, some of whom were worse off to begin with, so it should be recovering now as many of those are.

Cutting back on all those licenced and protected industries would have been a start and would have encouraged entrepreneurs to start and succeed in businesses and help the economy but that hasn't happened. My partner looked into starting a business but it was this issue that changed his mind, it just made it impossible for any new business to be viable or even possible. So now it looks like he'll start up over her in the UK and our economy will benefit instead of Greece's and I know other Greeks living outside of Greece doing the same for the same reasons.

Yes it has corrupt politicians (who doesn't) and they have brought Greece to it's knees and now they want more money but are not willing to make the changes needed to create an economy that will thrive and instead wish to continue to do the same things. At some point the creditors were going to say enough is enough and it looks like that time has come. But ultimately these politicians were voted in via a democratic system with the promise of restoring all the public sector jobs which was never going to be possible, if you can't afford something you can't afford it. So your stuck with a populist party with communist leanings and I don't believe that will end well.

I love Greece, I think it is a wonderful, beautiful and vibrant country and I don't believe anybody wants to see Greece fail, least of all my partner and I as we'd like to retire there, but if Greece is a victim it is of it's own making and it needs to sort it out itself and it can't just keep holding it hands out for more and more money from other European taxpayers without taking the steps to rectify things.

My partner just sent me this article which I thought was pretty interesting;

The Independent - Greece Article

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02-07-2015, 04:46 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
First of I'm also sad that things have come to this in Greece it really is bullshit that a few greedy and corrupt people can doom so many other of their fellow citizens. And I also think it's too bad that the younger generations will have to take it on the chin. But the thing is as citizens we have no problems with enjoying the hard labor of the past generations and enjoying the good life if that is how it turned out. That too we didn't create. So we also have to take the bad things. And I know it's easy to say when I live in Denmark where things seems to be going along nicely. So perhaps I'd see it differently if I was in your shoes. But I guess your generation and the following ones will be the ones to rebuild Greece. . . hopefully.
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02-07-2015, 05:05 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
It looks an awful lot like Detroit --- just with older buildings and better weather.....

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02-07-2015, 07:08 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
Another interesting article from The Independent which highlights how mismanaged the looming referendum is. People need time to consider what they are voting on and to do that they need all the information. And whatever is decided on Sunday and however that eventually pans out, the Government can wash it's hands of it and say 'well you voted for it'.

Independent Greece Article

I was also led to believe that referendums were not meant to be on fiscal policy so that would make this unconstitutional. Although maybe I have that wrong and someone more knowledgeable than I on such matters can correct me.

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02-07-2015, 07:46 AM
RE: It's official: Referendum in Greece on bailout terms
(01-07-2015 04:12 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I understand your frustration. Hopefully something gets worked out soon. From a neutral position, think of the frustration of the creditors as well......."thanks for the 1.2 billion (or whatever the amount was) euro bailout but our corrupt politicians blew it on hookers and yachts, prosecute them and dont hold the country accountable. Consider it a bad investment and call it a loss."

The problem with this theory is the creditors are out 1.2 billion euros (or whatever it was) and inevitably another country will need financial assistance from the creditors and I would think they would be ....reluctant to help. The ol burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice shame on me theory. No matter what, everyone is going to lose it seems, and it pains me that you and your family are in this situation. I truly hope it gets worked out somehow and you find your way to financial stability. Hug

Thank you Hug
I understand, all countries of the EU will suffer because of this and I wish it was otherwise. If only the country could pay the money back through a better-constructed plan that would encourage the growth and strengthening of our markets.

(02-07-2015 04:33 AM)Eva Wrote:  My partner is Greek, he lives with me in the UK but his parents are still over in Athens, so while I am by no means an expert I am getting a daily run down. He takes the stance that this is not the Eurozone that has created this but Greece's mismanagement of itself over decades and those chickens would inevitably come home to roost. It's unfortunate that your generation is bearing the brunt of things you had no hand in and I see the same happening to the young in the UK. And no it is not fair, But I'm afraid anyone who says life is fair is lying, it isn't and never has been.

Many countries have been living outside of their means, the UK included and a few were doing it to the point of bankruptcy but that type of living can never be sustained indefinitely not on a personal level or a national level.

Cyprus was in a similar situation back in 2009 (I think it was 09) and it banks failed. But over time they have got their act together and are now recovering. I doubt that was easy and I'm sure many suffered but things have improved for many there now. Greece had the same opportunities and has had more concessions given to it than many of it's neighbouring counties, some of whom were worse off to begin with, so it should be recovering now as many of those are.

Cutting back on all those licenced and protected industries would have been a start and would have encouraged entrepreneurs to start and succeed in businesses and help the economy but that hasn't happened. My partner looked into starting a business but it was this issue that changed his mind, it just made it impossible for any new business to be viable or even possible. So now it looks like he'll start up over her in the UK and our economy will benefit instead of Greece's and I know other Greeks living outside of Greece doing the same for the same reasons.

Yes it has corrupt politicians (who doesn't) and they have brought Greece to it's knees and now they want more money but are not willing to make the changes needed to create an economy that will thrive and instead wish to continue to do the same things. At some point the creditors were going to say enough is enough and it looks like that time has come. But ultimately these politicians were voted in via a democratic system with the promise of restoring all the public sector jobs which was never going to be possible, if you can't afford something you can't afford it. So your stuck with a populist party with communist leanings and I don't believe that will end well.

I love Greece, I think it is a wonderful, beautiful and vibrant country and I don't believe anybody wants to see Greece fail, least of all my partner and I as we'd like to retire there, but if Greece is a victim it is of it's own making and it needs to sort it out itself and it can't just keep holding it hands out for more and more money from other European taxpayers without taking the steps to rectify things.

My partner just sent me this article which I thought was pretty interesting;

The Independent - Greece Article

Your partner is right, it is actually Greece's mismanagement that has led us here. And yes, there are corrupt politicians everywhere, but we are indeed one of the countries with the highest corruption levels, not to mention that our politicians aren't very bright and they think they can get away with anything.

I don't see a future and that's because I honestly believe most people in my country are brainwashed imbeciles. Unfortunately, I can't do much about that Undecided

As for the article, I mostly agree with it, but it makes a very cringe-worthy assumption.
It implies that the election of the "socialist" party PASOK in the 80s was the beginning of "leftism" in the Greek state. Well, simply put, that's bullshit. PASOK was hardly socialist and by the 90s it was really hard to tell between them and the right-wing next most popular party. Saying that Syriza is a follow-up to this only goes to show that the person writing the article has no idea about Greek political history.

I agree, however, that favoritism and all the rest destroyed the country. I actually once held in my own hands a paper by an important member of the then-ruling right-wing party with notes and lists of people who asked for things in exchange for their votes and what they got.

Also, be careful, the communists in Greece would behead you for implying that Syriza is a party with "communist leanings" Tongue


(02-07-2015 04:46 AM)Nishi Karano Kaze Wrote:  First of I'm also sad that things have come to this in Greece it really is bullshit that a few greedy and corrupt people can doom so many other of their fellow citizens. And I also think it's too bad that the younger generations will have to take it on the chin. But the thing is as citizens we have no problems with enjoying the hard labor of the past generations and enjoying the good life if that is how it turned out. That too we didn't create. So we also have to take the bad things. And I know it's easy to say when I live in Denmark where things seems to be going along nicely. So perhaps I'd see it differently if I was in your shoes. But I guess your generation and the following ones will be the ones to rebuild Greece. . . hopefully.

Easy to say if you live in Denmark Tongue

Do you want to know what the "good life" that the past generations worked so hard for is?
Well, I gotta admit, they beat the dictatorship and gifted us with free education (the fact that education isn't practically free though is a whole different chapter). But if no taxation of the Greek church's extravagant wealth, people dying in hospitals because doctors were bored/underpaid or equipment was old, no meritocracy, an extremely corrupted legal system and schools filled with religious symbols, prayers and ridiculously written books sound like something I should appreciate, well, no thank you. And I'm sure I haven't mentioned everything.

The people who protested against the dictatorship, the ones whose friends died in that fight, they are the ones who ended up ruling the country all these years. There's something extremely wrong with that.


What I believe is the problem is that Greece has been a free country since 1830 and from then on until 1974 when we first had actual democracy (that is 144 years) it's been through war with Turkey, then war to reclaim our lands, then WWI, then the huge surge of immigrants, then a dictatorship, then WWII, then a civil war with prosecutions and executions and finally another dictatorship.

Our history with democracy has only lasted 40 years. Back in the 80s, people thought that the country was finally a modern, industrialized member of the first world for the first time. That was a false sense of security provided by the government who sustained our well-being with more and more loans they couldn't handle. I can only hope that through this experience, we will mature as a people and maybe, someday, we'll be able to stand on our feet again.

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