It's only sexist when men do it
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-07-2012, 04:33 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2012 04:36 PM by TrulyX.)
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
(09-07-2012 03:28 PM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  That's not the problem though. The problem isn't that little boys play with transformers and little girls play with dolls. It's that little girls who don't play with dolls are somehow considered less "girls", and are called tomboys, and little boys who do play with dolls are called girls, and seen as not normal.

These are "gender roles" I'd gladly live without. Why not just let kids play with what they want, and gradually they will find what they like. To say girls have biologically evolved to play with dolls just seems... well I'd like to see some kind of justification for that claim before I dismiss it out of hand. Kids emulate their parents. Little girls see their mother with a baby and want to be like her, so they play with dolls. My little brother, who had no male adult in the house to emulate, played with dolls because that's what he saw around him. Gender roles are social constructs.

(09-07-2012 03:18 PM)TrulyX Wrote:  ......when the real problem is limiting either sex to only that specific role.

That's what I meant by that part of my response.

Also, the toys part wasn't meant to be an specific example of biological/evolutionary developed roles, but you can't really rule it out as having nothing to do with that. I'm not a scientist/evolutionary biologist, but some of the essential roles that were taken up early on as humans, and psychological and biological traits that developed as a result, some of which probably have a great deal to do with why we are actually still here, and that shape us as humans, can explain the larger roles that are just being exemplified in the toys.

That's kind of besides the point, however. What I was addressing was kind of what you alluded to. The feminist shouldn't be focusing on the roles themselves (e.g. playing with different toys), but limiting to only those roles (e.g. girls can't play with certain toys).

It kind of amounts to not being concerned with what women, or men, are told they should do, but being concerned if, and when, they are told they have to do that, and that only.

As far as the being called "less 'girls'", if that's the case, that is wrong, but as far as "tomboys" or less feminine, that's just calling it like it is, as long as you don't view the word 'tomboy' as degrading. That's where the biological/evolutionary traits come into play. There are reasons why guys do certain things, and girls do certain things, guys do certain things better, girls do certain things better, and certain things are called masculine and certain things are called feminine. Society didn't make it all up; some of it granted, but not all.

It really comes down to picking gripes properly; I just get pissed when feminists bitch about the wrong shit, like the women in the video I posted did with Hitch. If you get mad because society is telling women they can't be viewed as intellectuals, they can't be scientist and engineers, etc. because that's what guys do, you have a problem; but if you just chose something ignorantly and randomly that you don't like and attack it, then that is annoying and I have a problem.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-07-2012, 04:35 PM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
(09-07-2012 03:48 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Gentlemen, please.... KNOW YOUR PLACE!

We have evolved to high status of sperm-providers and jar-openers.
Live with it.




I am us and we is me. ... bitches.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes GirlyMan's post
10-07-2012, 12:54 AM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
First of all, just because society has evolved this way over thousands of years doesn't mean it has to stay that way. We socialise children though parenting, peer pressure, and the media. If these three things are practically bullying children into the social roles that it has devised for them, by saying this is how girls should act and this is how boys should act, we're hardly giving them the freedom to choose. These same kids grow up to think that men should be strong and competitive and women should be vulnerable and sensitive. Because these are the roles we're shoving into their faces from a young age.
We're really not going to change how we socialise our children overnight, and I don't think it would be healthy for us to do so anyway, as a society. But change comes slowly, one piece at a time. You change little things like words, (chairperson instead of chairman) and with time that changes concepts. You make sure children's books and movies show that some children don't fall into the pidgeon-holes we create for them, and that's ok, and kids start to see that as acceptable. These aren't things that feminists just came up with to raise a stink over nothing. These people have studied sociology, and they know what they need to do to bring about the change they want.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Smooshmonster's post
10-07-2012, 06:23 AM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
To add on to Smoosh's concept it's not like that fight is purely a feminist one. Smoosh mentioned quite clearly the impact that gender roles have on the LGBT community and primarily the transgendered community (transsexual M-F's are actually now a good portion of feminists too [in the circles that accept them]). The gender roles' need has been done away with long ago. There are excellent video on sociology that highlight the different ways adults react to even different gendered babies. A large part of what makes boys and girls different is what they are subjected to. And many families still do and alwways have pushed specific things. When it's easier to do one fun thing because dad doesn't complain you do that. Humans have been socially controlled for a long time into roles. It's not something you can even oft times see yourself doing. When parents try the baby X experiment (raising their child without gender roles) normally their surprise on how the child still does the same things a similar gendered baby would do is laughable since they forget family television and friends. You can't escape the gender roles that exist currently because they are so ingrained in everyone, but as Smoosh said the little changes that happen through language ad what values are raised to the next generation wil lead to something more understandable.

You talked about how girls can complain that they aren't seen as intellectuals, it's long been the case. Men have had far more time for the best and brightest to be in the spotlight, and most likely a few women were counted as great men of history (since for most of history a male pen nae was the only way to work). While women can be intellectuals now it's hard to accept sometimes and can be a real depressing issue. You guys accept random guys going on youtube to rant well sometimes the girls want to as well. It's a much steeper hill on the women's side and they have a right to complain about, yes sometimes they go too far, but another thing I was alluding to withthe discussion of black racists and sensationalism is that there really are underlying problems that exist. We just tend to pay attention to the loud ones.

If you want something to blame for destroying the sanctity of gender roles blame Star Trek =p Despite Captain Kirk's incessant womanizing that show highlighted a world where women and men were treated equally. Ohura was given the respect that generally only men were given and was even called sir like all the rest. As campy of a sholw as it looks nowadays it helped form this idea of breaking the stereotyping in a lot young people of the time.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Lilith Pride's post
10-07-2012, 06:59 AM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
(09-07-2012 04:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(09-07-2012 03:48 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Gentlemen, please.... KNOW YOUR PLACE!



We have evolved to high status of sperm-providers and jar-openers.

Live with it.









If the worlds biggest macho-man says so, everybody must listen! The living legend. The Man! Anyone know a "bigger" Man than Clint?

Bowing Bowing Bowing Bowing

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-07-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
(10-07-2012 12:54 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  These people have studied sociology, and they know what they need to do to bring about the change they want.

I think that's the problem. Try studying more important subjects, and getting over your own radical agenda for social change.

The question you need to ask yourself is if what you are doing is actually something to help society's, and people's, advancement and treatment, or it just branches off of your own personal preferences. In every case of people with similar types of views, you can make extremely strong cases for it being the latter.

There has to be a better reason why you would find yourself having radical views and wanting to change the biology of boys and girls, while seemingly spending no time at all actually caring about extremist views, a lot of times rooted in religion, especially in poor countries and the middle east, that hold views treating women barely as human beings.

It's kind of an idea like, no, we'll just forget about them, they are in the back-burners of our minds as feminists. We're safe here in our modern, rich, civilized countries, let us worry about more important issues. We don't like how guys have developed their bone structures, bodies, muscles, hormones, psychology, sexual attraction, reproductive roles etc. as compared to females over unthinkably large amounts of time of development and evolution. We don't like that at all, let's start a campaign to change that; that's our biggest concern. As far as the fetuses being aborted and infants being killed for being female, as far as women as sex slaves, women owned by their husbands, women being raped and sexual/genital mutilation, those are important too, but what's just as import is the fact that guys have bigger muscles, are naturally stronger, and the way that they are attracted to women, especially when that translates to how social roles are developed. We can't stand for those naturally, biologically occurring things, so that tops our priority list. Let's start a campaign to change human evolution and biologically developed social norms.

The thing is that gender roles are not created by society, or social norms. It's controlled by evolution and biology. Women and men are different by nature, that developed through the process of evolution over extremely long periods of time, a lot of which don't even have to do with the structure of societies, but the other way around; the structures of societies had to do with the other developments which lead to further developments biologically.

Your heart is the right place I guess, and you can believe and try and change what you want, but you're really fighting the wrong battle. The battle is through acceptance. It's hardly a choice, yes, but it was hardly a choice for me as far as my skin color, eye color, hair, height, weight, muscle potential, physical abilities, intellectual abilities, sex, sexual preference, my environment, my neurological development, my personality, my looks, I could go on but I'm running out of ideas.

My point is, it's a battle that only should be fought through the acceptance of people for being different than the "norms" not the "norms" themselves. You can take that point, or I could be wrong, and you can continue to think whatever way you want. However, if a guy likes hair and make-up and dressing up, things females traditionally are concerned with do to the nature of males physical/sexual attraction to females, that's okay with me. If a girl likes competitive sports, things that guys tend to be drawn to by naturally being physically strong and mentally/biologically drawn to those activities, again that is okay.

People are vastly different, individual to individual, and unique in their own way. The goal is to love and accept everyone for who they are, and bring society to a point of understanding and acceptance that can lead to that. You just don't want to draw the attention to something that isn't' the true root of the problem. The true root of the problem, here, is that people, in general, are not always welcoming of change, and ignorance, lack of understanding, can lead to people's hatred of things in which they don't understand. It's not only pointless to try to change the gender roles themselves, it's also completely impractical. Understanding and acceptance is always the way to go. It's working with racism, it's working with LGBT rights, it's working women's rights, it's working and has worked with everything throughout history; it's the right way to go.

If me not wanting to do away with gender roles makes me a sexist, just like Christopher was viewed as a sexist by the girl in the video, so be it, I'm a sexist and a proud sexist. I'm not for changing the differences that are evident and innate, that's not the way to solve problems, in my opinion, and I'll stand by that. Same goes for being called a racist, because I don't like explaining things as one human race. The cultural differences and difference in skin colors there leads me to a similar conclusion of acceptance of differences over ignoring and/or changing the differences. I guess I'll just be a proud sexist, racist bigot; at least that way me and conservatives can have something in common.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-07-2012, 11:28 AM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
Why did you make me watch that clip from "the View"? I feel like my brain has melted.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-07-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
(10-07-2012 12:54 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  First of all, just because society has evolved this way over thousands of years doesn't mean it has to stay that way. We socialise children though parenting, peer pressure, and the media. If these three things are practically bullying children into the social roles that it has devised for them, by saying this is how girls should act and this is how boys should act, we're hardly giving them the freedom to choose. These same kids grow up to think that men should be strong and competitive and women should be vulnerable and sensitive. Because these are the roles we're shoving into their faces from a young age.
We're really not going to change how we socialise our children overnight, and I don't think it would be healthy for us to do so anyway, as a society. But change comes slowly, one piece at a time. You change little things like words, (chairperson instead of chairman) and with time that changes concepts. You make sure children's books and movies show that some children don't fall into the pidgeon-holes we create for them, and that's ok, and kids start to see that as acceptable. These aren't things that feminists just came up with to raise a stink over nothing. These people have studied sociology, and they know what they need to do to bring about the change they want.
That is not the only problem, but I agree with what you say.

[Image: 4833fa13.jpg]
Poonjab
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-07-2012, 11:42 AM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
(10-07-2012 06:59 AM)Filox Wrote:  
(09-07-2012 04:35 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  





If the worlds biggest macho-man says so, everybody must listen! The living legend. The Man! Anyone know a "bigger" Man than Clint?

Bowing Bowing Bowing Bowing


[Image: john_wayne.jpg]

How about John fucking Wayne?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-07-2012, 01:03 AM
RE: It's only sexist when men do it
Hahahahahha, the Duke is cool, but Clint? WTH man, while The Duke was are clean, shaved and with silk scarf, The Man was unshaved, rough, dirty, always angry, raw, as a true cowboy is suppose to be. So yeah, I'll say Clint is The Man, even greater than The Duke. Spaghetti Westerns are so much better and realistic than any other ever made.

But I love The Duke as well... Just not as much.

Smile

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: