Ivan Panin's "Proof".
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31-01-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
Quote:That depends on what you are telling the future about. If it were specific, and came true, then you'd have something. If there were as vague as horoscope then you'd merely prove that you have knowledge about barnum statements.
Born in Bethlehem.
Died with wrists and feet pierced.
Rose from the dead.
Of the line of David.
Of the line of David not through Solomon/Jechoniah but with the titular rights to kingship from that line via adoption.
Sold for thirty silver pieces.
Betrayed by a close associate with a kiss.
Having brothers who reject but later bow to Him.
Called Y'shua. Called God with us. Called the Prince of Peace.
Being a Jew who would be revered worldwide as Messiah, God and King.
Etc.
By contrast, read today's horoscope for your sign then read three others. All four will vaguely apply.
The context for the extraordinary claim is 1) We know the prophecies of the OT predate the NT 2) We are now left to argue the reliability and accuracy of the NT.
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31-01-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(31-01-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:That depends on what you are telling the future about. If it were specific, and came true, then you'd have something. If there were as vague as horoscope then you'd merely prove that you have knowledge about barnum statements.
Born in Bethlehem.
Died with wrists and feet pierced.
Rose from the dead.
Of the line of David.
Of the line of David not through Solomon/Jechoniah but with the titular rights to kingship from that line via adoption.
Sold for thirty silver pieces.
Betrayed by a close associate with a kiss.
Having brothers who reject but later bow to Him.
Called Y'shua. Called God with us. Called the Prince of Peace.
Being a Jew who would be revered worldwide as Messiah, God and King.
Etc.
By contrast, read today's horoscope for your sign then read three others. All four will vaguely apply.
The context for the extraordinary claim is 1) We know the prophecies of the OT predate the NT 2) We are now left to argue the reliability and accuracy of the NT.


For starters, precise Bible citation would be far more useful over a vague and unsubstantiated list. Another thing to remember is chronology and authorship. None of the gospels were written by eye witnesses, and none of them are contemporary. All of the gospels were written decades after Jesus's claimed death and resurrection, were written by non-witnesses, and are records of hearsay upon hearsay. They were written by learned individuals (at least they knew enough to be literate in Greek), most likely with agendas to push. They would have had access to the Greek translation of the Torah, the Pentateuch, and it's translation errors carried over into the Gospels (such as the mistranslation of 'young woman' into 'virgin'). So these authors, who had a vested interest in proving Christianity to be true, also had access to the Messianic Prophecies of the Torah. How hard would it be to fudge details and create new one in order to make Jesus 'fulfill' these prophecies? Not hard at all. That being said, they still couldn't twist the story around enough to actually make Jesus the Jewish Messiah, because according to the Torah, Jesus was NOT the Messiah. That is why we still have Jews around, because there are good reasons to dismiss Jesus as a false prophet by the standards of the Torah.





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31-01-2013, 03:15 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
All that proves is that whoever wrote about the life of Jesus knew about the prophecies from the Old Testament. Without evidence that these events it is more likely that someone just wrote those events into his life to pretend that he was the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
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31-01-2013, 03:28 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
Fortunately, in fulfillment of the prophecy, there are thousands of churches worldwide raised to Jesus. Fortunately, in fulfillment of the prophecy, Israel is in the hands of the Jewish people after two millennia of diaspora.
That's a marvelously powerful set of self-sustaining, self-fulfilling prophecies to cover the people who wrote a second phony testament to substantiate the claims of the first phony testament--while being persecuted by both Romans and their own people for their writings and faith.
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31-01-2013, 03:36 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(31-01-2013 01:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The codes are extraordinary and statistically speaking, significant. They cannot be found in "any text", at least, not the kinds of extraordinary codes I'm aware of. Thank you.


But that's precisely the problem. You are not aware of the mathematics that prove that any sizable text can yield patterns in exactly the way the alleged 'Bible Code' does and with equal veracity.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-01-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(31-01-2013 03:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 01:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The codes are extraordinary and statistically speaking, significant. They cannot be found in "any text", at least, not the kinds of extraordinary codes I'm aware of. Thank you.


But that's precisely the problem. You are not aware of the mathematics that prove that any sizable text can yield patterns in exactly the way the alleged 'Bible Code' does and with equal veracity.
There are six texts I've found that say the Jewish Messiah will be revered among the Gentiles while reading an English Bible. There was no mathematical coding or decoding or assumption required.
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31-01-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(31-01-2013 03:45 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 03:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  But that's precisely the problem. You are not aware of the mathematics that prove that any sizable text can yield patterns in exactly the way the alleged 'Bible Code' does and with equal veracity.
There are six texts I've found that say the Jewish Messiah will be revered among the Gentiles while reading an English Bible. There was no mathematical coding or decoding or assumption required.
Pardon me, did you just change the subject? Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-01-2013, 04:21 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2013 05:51 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(31-01-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:That depends on what you are telling the future about. If it were specific, and came true, then you'd have something. If there were as vague as horoscope then you'd merely prove that you have knowledge about barnum statements.
Born in Bethlehem.
Died with wrists and feet pierced.
Rose from the dead.
Of the line of David.
Of the line of David not through Solomon/Jechoniah but with the titular rights to kingship from that line via adoption.
Sold for thirty silver pieces.
Betrayed by a close associate with a kiss.
Having brothers who reject but later bow to Him.
Called Y'shua. Called God with us. Called the Prince of Peace.
Being a Jew who would be revered worldwide as Messiah, God and King.
Etc.
By contrast, read today's horoscope for your sign then read three others. All four will vaguely apply.
The context for the extraordinary claim is 1) We know the prophecies of the OT predate the NT 2) We are now left to argue the reliability and accuracy of the NT.
You do of course realize that the authors of the new testament knew of and read the old testament. They alluded to the old testament to give their current testimonies more validity.

If anything the new testament is the effect of postdiction

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31-01-2013, 04:42 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(31-01-2013 01:29 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The codes are extraordinary and statistically speaking, significant. They cannot be found in "any text", at least, not the kinds of extraordinary codes I'm aware of. Thank you.
For the sake of the discussion, I am going to assume that these "codes" are indeed extraordinary and statistically significant. Now, what do these codes have to do with the alleged divine origin of the Bible?

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31-01-2013, 06:15 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(31-01-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:That depends on what you are telling the future about. If it were specific, and came true, then you'd have something. If there were as vague as horoscope then you'd merely prove that you have knowledge about barnum statements.
Born in Bethlehem.
Died with wrists and feet pierced.
Rose from the dead.
Of the line of David.
Of the line of David not through Solomon/Jechoniah but with the titular rights to kingship from that line via adoption.
Sold for thirty silver pieces.
Betrayed by a close associate with a kiss.
Having brothers who reject but later bow to Him.
Called Y'shua. Called God with us. Called the Prince of Peace.
Being a Jew who would be revered worldwide as Messiah, God and King.
Etc.
By contrast, read today's horoscope for your sign then read three others. All four will vaguely apply.
The context for the extraordinary claim is 1) We know the prophecies of the OT predate the NT 2) We are now left to argue the reliability and accuracy of the NT.
You can't use details from the life of Jesus as proof of prophecy, because you know exactly jack shit about the life of Jesus, except the books that claim he was a god in human form and therefore would have every reason to twist his life to fit prophecy.
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