Ivan Panin's "Proof".
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05-02-2013, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 09:47 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(05-02-2013 07:35 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Sounds good, but I have a Bachelor's of Religion from a secular university and the assumption that I am an ignoramus about these matters is way off base. And the non-fundie professors would agree. Jeremiah and Isaiah and other prophets, for one example, predicted a 70-year captivity in Babylon. Read this carefully from Daniel 9:
In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years. 3 So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.
The diaspora is a prototypical example of prophets who writings were held in check until the prediction came true to verify the speaker. Daniel knew the 70 years predicted by prophets and written in the Tanakh were drawing to a close. Next, I'm sure you'll tell me that Daniel wrote post-exilic "prophecies" that were written in hindsight only. Yawn. non-fundies HAVE to say that to invalidate the prophecies.
The writings of the prophets were not soothsaying/fortune-telling. That is not what prophets did. It was forbidden.
What "secular university" ?

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05-02-2013, 11:20 AM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
1. You mean "which" university, I think. Suffice it to say that PleaseJesus went to a non-Christian university on a wholly secular and liberal campus sitting under liberal and Atheist professors.
2. That's right, a prophet brings news to the people from God. The quote you're taking out of context from Deuteronomy and elsewhere says that mediums and diviners and witchcraft are forbidden. Medium = communes with the dead. Prophet = one who makes prophecies. Amos 3:7 - "Indeed, the Sovereign LORD never does anything until he reveals his plans to his
servants the prophets." I'm sure this forum somewhere has a thread arguing whether Isaiah 7 is "virgin" or "young woman"...? Isaiah 7 - Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

"Virgin" or "young woman" as in Matthew, I don't know how anyone could read that and not see that Isaiah is offering some things that will occur in the future...? Then ISAIAH said... the virgin WILL, the boy WILL, before the coming boy learns enough to CHOOSE, the Lord WILL, he WILL bring the Assyrian king... I mean, stop this line of nonsense already, please.
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05-02-2013, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2013 12:20 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(05-02-2013 11:20 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1. You mean "which" university, I think. Suffice it to say that PleaseJesus went to a non-Christian university on a wholly secular and liberal campus sitting under liberal and Atheist professors.
2. That's right, a prophet brings news to the people from God. The quote you're taking out of context from Deuteronomy and elsewhere says that mediums and diviners and witchcraft are forbidden. Medium = communes with the dead. Prophet = one who makes prophecies. Amos 3:7 - "Indeed, the Sovereign LORD never does anything until he reveals his plans to his
servants the prophets." I'm sure this forum somewhere has a thread arguing whether Isaiah 7 is "virgin" or "young woman"...? Isaiah 7 - Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11 “Ask the Lord your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.”

12 But Ahaz said, “I will not ask; I will not put the Lord to the test.”

13 Then Isaiah said, “Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

"Virgin" or "young woman" as in Matthew, I don't know how anyone could read that and not see that Isaiah is offering some things that will occur in the future...? Then ISAIAH said... the virgin WILL, the boy WILL, before the coming boy learns enough to CHOOSE, the Lord WILL, he WILL bring the Assyrian king... I mean, stop this line of nonsense already, please.

Well wherever it was it obviously did you no good. Isaiah was talking to the King of HIS day, NOT telling the future. It was later MIS-translated, and interpreted LATER, to mean something totalkly other than what he said to the king in HIS day, not fortune-telling about Jebus. Sorry if this rocks your little boat, PleaseJebus, but no mainline scholar would agree with your utter nonsence. You have no clue about the historical origins of the office, and their place in that culture. It was NOT to tell the future. Go get an education, before you start preaching your crap at us.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rgin+birth

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05-02-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
Hi Bucky,
You were entrapped by thinking about MATTHEW. If MATTHEW WERE NEVER WRITTEN, the language above was a prophecy from Isaiah to Ahaz. He was telling the future of the King of HIS day.
I have an education and two college degrees. You?
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05-02-2013, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2013 06:54 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(05-02-2013 02:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Hi Bucky,
You were entrapped by thinking about MATTHEW. If MATTHEW WERE NEVER WRITTEN, the language above was a prophecy from Isaiah to Ahaz. He was telling the future of the King of HIS day.
I have an education and two college degrees. You?
"Entrapped by Matthew" ?? hahaha. "entrapped by Jebus" gospel. You've got to be kidding.
Wrong. It was advice to Ahaz to take a perfectly natural, normal event IN HIS DAY, IN HIS TIME, which everyone probably knew about as routine court gossip, (NOT what was later interpreted by Matthew as "prophecy" about Jebus), that the fact his wife would be found to be with child was a "sign" he was favored. So thanks for making my point. THAT is not "telling the future'. It was advice on interpreting a perfectly normal, natural, expected, event. You are wrong about "prophecy". So sad. Too bad. I am a student in the Biblical studies dept at Harvard, (continuing), and CalTech, (Physics). And BTW, your forgot to defend your fallacious statement that it was about a "virgin birth", where I proved you were 100 % incorrect. Jebus would not be pleased. For every "prediction' (in your false prophesy crap), there are 10 that did not happen, including THE biggest blunder of all time. Your Jebus, as one of the many many apocalyptic preachers of his time, said the endtimes were coming in THIS (his) generation. He was wrong, as were ALL the other apocayptics, including Saul of Tarsus, who also expected it in HIS llifetime. All the apocalyptic crap in Revelation never happened, and never will.

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05-02-2013, 06:03 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2013 06:42 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(01-02-2013 07:12 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  This last post seems most thoughtful.
The New Testament would be suspect if it didn't already tackle yours and other issues. The parsing of prophecies into first and second comings is Hermeneutics 101 and hardly bears repeating. There must be 100 threads around here where Christians discuss it? Jesus Himself specifically divided an Isaiah prophecy and stopped in the middle of His reading in the synagogue.
A question: If everyone is certain the NT is classic postdiction, why per the Law didn't the Jews utterly burn the NT scriptures since THEY were contemporaneous to the events and knew the events were postdicted and redacted lies? The Tanakh demands authenticity for new "revelations".
Now let me help you. The jews were ruled over by rome at the time. During this period of time, there were many sects of judaism, christianity, and other fun religions. As they diversified different texts were written to justify their different belief systems. This of course lead to conflict between the two groups.

Later on christianity got a foot hold in rome, and then the various texts were assembled into the NT.

I'd personally like to know what law you are talking about and what evidence do you have that such a law existed.


Here you go, some jewish people did adhere to christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christians

I know the source is biased however....
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies


In AD 325 the first council of nicaea, voted on all the different books of the NT and decided to include different books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Now tell me again how in 290 years or so, how postdiction could not have been an effect?

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05-02-2013, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 05-02-2013 09:19 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(05-02-2013 06:03 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(01-02-2013 07:12 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  This last post seems most thoughtful.
The New Testament would be suspect if it didn't already tackle yours and other issues. The parsing of prophecies into first and second comings is Hermeneutics 101 and hardly bears repeating. There must be 100 threads around here where Christians discuss it? Jesus Himself specifically divided an Isaiah prophecy and stopped in the middle of His reading in the synagogue.
A question: If everyone is certain the NT is classic postdiction, why per the Law didn't the Jews utterly burn the NT scriptures since THEY were contemporaneous to the events and knew the events were postdicted and redacted lies? The Tanakh demands authenticity for new "revelations".
Now let me help you. The jews were ruled over by rome at the time. During this period of time, there were many sects of judaism, christianity, and other fun religions. As they diversified different texts were written to justify their different belief systems. This of course lead to conflict between the two groups.

Later on christianity got a foot hold in rome, and then the various texts were assembled into the NT.

I'd personally like to know what law you are talking about and what evidence do you have that such a law existed.


Here you go, some jewish people did adhere to christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christians

I know the source is biased however....
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies


In AD 325 the first council of nicaea, voted on all the different books of the NT and decided to include different books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Now tell me again how in 290 years or so, how postdiction could not have been an effect?

Um "some Jewish people" ?
For many years ALL the members of the Way cult were mostly Jews, and considered themselves good Jews. They remained so for centuries. Gamaliel III in the late 90's had, (required) Expulsion Curses read at all synagogue services because the Way cult members, ("Christians") refused to leave. Even as late as ("St. John") Chrysostom, (300 CE) the "Christians" were STILL going to the synagogues, and he had to bitch at them to stop, (see his Christmas sermon, in the Collected Sermons).

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05-02-2013, 07:28 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(05-02-2013 07:00 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 06:03 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Now let me help you. The jews were ruled over by rome at the time. During this period of time, there were many sects of judaism, christianity, and other fun religions. As they diversified different texts were written to justify their different belief systems. This of course lead to conflict between the two groups.

Later on christianity got a foot hold in rome, and then the various texts were assembled into the NT.

I'd personally like to know what law you are talking about and what evidence do you have that such a law existed.


Here you go, some jewish people did adhere to christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christians

I know the source is biased however....
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Failed_biblical_prophecies


In AD 325 the first council of nicaea, voted on all the different books of the NT and decided to include different books.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

Now tell me again how in 290 years or so, how postdiction could not have been an effect?

Um "some Jewish people" ?
For many years ALL the members of the Way cult were mostly Jews, and considered themselves good Jews. They remained so for centuries. Gamaliel III in the late 90's had, (required) Expulsion Curses read at all synagogue services because the Way cult members, ("Christians") refused to leave. Even as late as ("St. John") Chrysostom, the "Christians" were STILL going to the synagogues, and he had to bitch at them to stop, (see his Christmas sermon, in the Collected Sermons).
Thanks for that information. I'm paraphrasing so it's not totally accurate.

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06-02-2013, 07:41 AM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(05-02-2013 04:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 02:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Hi Bucky,
You were entrapped by thinking about MATTHEW. If MATTHEW WERE NEVER WRITTEN, the language above was a prophecy from Isaiah to Ahaz. He was telling the future of the King of HIS day.
I have an education and two college degrees. You?
"Entrapped by Matthew" ?? hahaha. "entrapped by Jebus" gospel. You've got to be kidding.
Wrong. It was advice to Ahaz to take a perfectly natural, normal event IN HIS DAY, IN HIS TIME, which everyone probably knew about as routine court gossip, (NOT what was later interpreted by Matthew as "prophecy" about Jebus), that the fact his wife would be found to be with child was a "sign" he was favored. So thanks for making my point. THAT is not "telling the future'. It was advice on interpreting a perfectly normal, natural, expected, event. You are wrong about "prophecy". So sad. Too bad. I am a student in the Biblical studies dept at Harvard, (continuing), and CalTech, (Physics). And BTW, your forgot to defend your fallacious statement that it was about a "virgin birth", where I proved you were 100 % incorrect. Jebus would not be pleased. For every "prediction' (in your false prophesy crap), there are 10 that did not happen, including THE biggest blunder of all time. Your Jebus, as one of the many many apocalyptic preachers of his time, said the endtimes were coming in THIS (his) generation. He was wrong, as were ALL the other apocayptics, including Saul of Tarsus, who also expected it in HIS llifetime. All the apocalyptic crap in Revelation never happened, and never will.
Oy vey. 1) There have been three-day debates before about the Hebrew "almah". It is a miraculous sign in ISAIAH and in MATTHEW. A young woman giving birth is not "The Lord Himself will give you a SIGN."
2) This is consistent with the other special births recorded in the Tanakh such as Issac, Samson, Samuel, etc.
3) The straw man of the "imminent return of Christ" is still being pushed at your universities and mine. So sad. Paul was clear that in no way would the end come until the Antichrist sat in the (third) Temple in Jerusalem. Peter encouraged his readers that a day was like a thousand years to God because God's return wasn't imminent. Both Paul and Peter prophesied their martyrdoms and warned their readers to tarry and stay faithful. Matthew 24 contains warnings against diverse terrors (like terrorism) and rumored wars (like a cold war in Greek) and that even these things are not the end, yet.
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06-02-2013, 07:44 AM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
Quote:For many years ALL the members of the Way cult were mostly Jews, and considered themselves good Jews. They remained so for centuries.
Double oy. This is my point. The Messianics holding the NT scriptures were in fellowship with the Jews who denied the NT scriptures and the non-believing Jews could have easily said something like, "What do you mean He healed thousands of people?" We were there and there is no Yeshua of Nazareth!"
As for the "law" about false prophets, prophets who foretell things that don't happen are to be executed per the Mosaic Law code.
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