Ivan Panin's "Proof".
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06-02-2013, 07:47 AM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
We are far from the original point of the thread. It's my fault, certainly.
Ivan Panin, who formerly lectured on Atheism in Russia and was Harvard educated, converted and wrote about his Bible numerics. I found his claims extraordinary and overreaching even as a Christian.
I got my Masoretic text off my shelf, looked at the Hebrew in Genesis and followed Panin's steps on paper and on PC. There are extraordinary clusters of prime numbers and other things in Genesis, statistically into the trillions to one against. I hope people here will examine the question for themselves. Peace out.
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06-02-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We are far from the original point of the thread. It's my fault, certainly.
Ivan Panin, who formerly lectured on Atheism in Russia and was Harvard educated, converted and wrote about his Bible numerics. I found his claims extraordinary and overreaching even as a Christian.
I got my Masoretic text off my shelf, looked at the Hebrew in Genesis and followed Panin's steps on paper and on PC. There are extraordinary clusters of prime numbers and other things in Genesis, statistically into the trillions to one against. I hope people here will examine the question for themselves. Peace out.


As has been shown by mathematicians, any text exhibits these properties. This is pure numerological tripe.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-02-2013, 09:26 AM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 09:10 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We are far from the original point of the thread. It's my fault, certainly.
Ivan Panin, who formerly lectured on Atheism in Russia and was Harvard educated, converted and wrote about his Bible numerics. I found his claims extraordinary and overreaching even as a Christian.
I got my Masoretic text off my shelf, looked at the Hebrew in Genesis and followed Panin's steps on paper and on PC. There are extraordinary clusters of prime numbers and other things in Genesis, statistically into the trillions to one against. I hope people here will examine the question for themselves. Peace out.


As has been shown by mathematicians, any text exhibits these properties. This is pure numerological tripe.
Exactly, and if you take your Shakespeare off your shelf and do the same thing, the exact same thing happens. The concept is not tested for validity against any other text as a comparison, by Panin, or empirically compared to any other set of books. It's meainingless tripe. The entire business of "inspiration" and canon inclusion (a very human process...non-unanimous VOTES, Eseubius cutting down the number of circulating gospels by the artificial and totally capricious "four winds, and four pillars" thing), the Documentary Hypothesis, etc etc, puts the lie to this nonsence. It's the same thing as picking and choosing what "prophesy" you care to deign as having been "fulfilled".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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06-02-2013, 09:35 AM
AW: RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We are far from the original point of the thread. It's my fault, certainly.
Ivan Panin, who formerly lectured on Atheism in Russia and was Harvard educated, converted and wrote about his Bible numerics. I found his claims extraordinary and overreaching even as a Christian.
I got my Masoretic text off my shelf, looked at the Hebrew in Genesis and followed Panin's steps on paper and on PC. There are extraordinary clusters of prime numbers and other things in Genesis, statistically into the trillions to one against. I hope people here will examine the question for themselves. Peace out.
You never answered my question as to how any of this has anything to do with the suggested divine origin of the Bible (page 3).

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06-02-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: AW: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 09:35 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We are far from the original point of the thread. It's my fault, certainly.
Ivan Panin, who formerly lectured on Atheism in Russia and was Harvard educated, converted and wrote about his Bible numerics. I found his claims extraordinary and overreaching even as a Christian.
I got my Masoretic text off my shelf, looked at the Hebrew in Genesis and followed Panin's steps on paper and on PC. There are extraordinary clusters of prime numbers and other things in Genesis, statistically into the trillions to one against. I hope people here will examine the question for themselves. Peace out.
You never answered my question as to how any of this has anything to do with the suggested divine origin of the Bible (page 3).

I think he did. He views the numerological tripe as proof of divine inspiration.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-02-2013, 10:01 AM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 07:41 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(05-02-2013 04:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "Entrapped by Matthew" ?? hahaha. "entrapped by Jebus" gospel. You've got to be kidding.
Wrong. It was advice to Ahaz to take a perfectly natural, normal event IN HIS DAY, IN HIS TIME, which everyone probably knew about as routine court gossip, (NOT what was later interpreted by Matthew as "prophecy" about Jebus), that the fact his wife would be found to be with child was a "sign" he was favored. So thanks for making my point. THAT is not "telling the future'. It was advice on interpreting a perfectly normal, natural, expected, event. You are wrong about "prophecy". So sad. Too bad. I am a student in the Biblical studies dept at Harvard, (continuing), and CalTech, (Physics). And BTW, your forgot to defend your fallacious statement that it was about a "virgin birth", where I proved you were 100 % incorrect. Jebus would not be pleased. For every "prediction' (in your false prophesy crap), there are 10 that did not happen, including THE biggest blunder of all time. Your Jebus, as one of the many many apocalyptic preachers of his time, said the endtimes were coming in THIS (his) generation. He was wrong, as were ALL the other apocayptics, including Saul of Tarsus, who also expected it in HIS llifetime. All the apocalyptic crap in Revelation never happened, and never will.
Oy vey. 1) There have been three-day debates before about the Hebrew "almah". It is a miraculous sign in ISAIAH and in MATTHEW. A young woman giving birth is not "The Lord Himself will give you a SIGN."
2) This is consistent with the other special births recorded in the Tanakh such as Issac, Samson, Samuel, etc.
3) The straw man of the "imminent return of Christ" is still being pushed at your universities and mine. So sad. Paul was clear that in no way would the end come until the Antichrist sat in the (third) Temple in Jerusalem. Peter encouraged his readers that a day was like a thousand years to God because God's return wasn't imminent. Both Paul and Peter prophesied their martyrdoms and warned their readers to tarry and stay faithful. Matthew 24 contains warnings against diverse terrors (like terrorism) and rumored wars (like a cold war in Greek) and that even these things are not the end, yet.
Yeah I've heard all that rationalization before. Jebus said "THIS generation", and all the thousand year crap was NEVER used anywhere else. It's a feeble attempt to make him look good, as he was obviously wrong. A young woman of marriageable age having a child is in no way "miracualous", and in no way compares to the other "miraculous" births. A biblical "miracle" is a totally natural event, INTERPRETED by a believer who sees the hand of their god operating, INSIDE nature. It is NOT an "unnatural" event. Another fallacy you would know about , if you ever studied the Bible at a mainline school. Isaac was myth anyway, as Friedman, (Archaeology) has proven, so it's all mythology anyway. Paul thought that those who had been baptized were ALREADY risen, and he expected te endtimes in his lifetime. They did have to cook up excuses for the fact that after Jerusalem was totally destroyed in the Bar Kochba revolt STILL nothing happened, and still has not. It's all BS. The world will end when the sun goes "red giant", in a few billion years. By then, humans, if they are still here, will LONG ago have forgotten about all of the many apocalytic preachers, including Jebus, who knew nothing about the life span of stars, and how long the Earth would last. So count your numbers. There are better things to do with one's time. So post an examination, objectively of ten sets of ancient texts, and we'll see whether the Bible is unique. You won't.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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06-02-2013, 10:08 AM
RE: AW: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 10:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think he did. He views the numerological tripe as proof of divine inspiration.
He told me that he views it as proof of divine inspiration; I was asking him how it proves divine inspiration. I fail to see the connection between numerical patterns in a text and the existence of a higher power.

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06-02-2013, 10:25 AM
RE: AW: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 10:08 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 10:01 AM)Chas Wrote:  I think he did. He views the numerological tripe as proof of divine inspiration.
He told me that he views it as proof of divine inspiration; I was asking him how it proves divine inspiration. I fail to see the connection between numerical patterns in a text and the existence of a higher power.


Then you're just refusing to see the power of the almighty, you fucking atheist. Angry

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06-02-2013, 03:04 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We are far from the original point of the thread. It's my fault, certainly.
Ivan Panin, who formerly lectured on Atheism in Russia and was Harvard educated, converted and wrote about his Bible numerics. I found his claims extraordinary and overreaching even as a Christian.
I got my Masoretic text off my shelf, looked at the Hebrew in Genesis and followed Panin's steps on paper and on PC. There are extraordinary clusters of prime numbers and other things in Genesis, statistically into the trillions to one against. I hope people here will examine the question for themselves. Peace out.
Well now I ask you to do the hard thing. Find another book in hebrew or greek and see if you get the same results.

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06-02-2013, 05:36 PM
RE: Ivan Panin's "Proof".
(06-02-2013 03:04 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(06-02-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We are far from the original point of the thread. It's my fault, certainly.
Ivan Panin, who formerly lectured on Atheism in Russia and was Harvard educated, converted and wrote about his Bible numerics. I found his claims extraordinary and overreaching even as a Christian.
I got my Masoretic text off my shelf, looked at the Hebrew in Genesis and followed Panin's steps on paper and on PC. There are extraordinary clusters of prime numbers and other things in Genesis, statistically into the trillions to one against. I hope people here will examine the question for themselves. Peace out.
Well now I ask you to do the hard thing. Find another book in hebrew or greek and see if you get the same results.
Most christian sites make a point to say these patterns are not found in any other text. Then again, such sites are not exactly reservoirs of unbiased facts.
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