James, Jesus' brother
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21-05-2015, 09:16 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 09:29 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 08:13 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Apparently more so than you, since you don't believe the Gospels spoke much of anything about sin or being saved.

Quote:You really have no clue what he actually said and did

You do? So what did he actually say, and do then?

What LATER authors placed in peoples mouths in their made-up faith documents (the many many gospels) tells us NOTHING about what really may have happened. I asked a specific question about your education and where you got it. Why are you afraid or embarrased to disclose that ? Answering my question with yet another inane question (your usual MO) is not an answer. I want to know EXACTLY how you think you know what he said or did. The fact is the earliest gospel (Mark) has virtually nothing about "salvation" except : "Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." and basically it doesn't say ANYTHING about that being accomplished by Jesus. The role of the "annointed one" was NEVER to "save from sin", (and even the followers in Acts asked him when he was going to restore the Kingdom, .. the role of a messiah). The fact is "salvation" was LATER cooked up, and was never really the content of the preaching (as agreed on by the Jesus Seminar). It was overlaid later. If you have something to say, fucking say it ,and stop with your idiotic inane "retort-questions".

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21-05-2015, 10:43 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 11:47 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 09:16 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I asked a specific question about your education and where you got it. Why are you afraid or embarrased to disclose that ?

Wink

I did a bit of PR/Modeling for Eileen Ford in NY, and LA, but now I'm at Cal Tech and considering applying to med school, and work towards becoming a surgeon. I'm also at Harvard continuing a PhD program in Ancient Near Eastern Studies. But I might just end up being a currency trader, like my old bro Zohan.

I had a Ivy League start when I was just 16, to escape Military High School, which was hell. And my father has always been my best friend and hero. He's a MD/PhD/Surgeon, and I may just follow into his business, but instead do pediatrics, rather than adults.

I've also been cursed with having total recall of verbal input, and as result I've become fascinated by neuro-linguistics. I assume very little, and over analyze everything, and believe that everything can be broken into smaller and smaller categories, ad infinitum.
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21-05-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 09:16 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What LATER authors placed in peoples mouths in their made-up faith documents (the many many gospels)

You said, "I don't see much about "salvation" or "cleasning from sins" in the gospels". I pointed out several passages in the gospels, now you're complaining about the gospels, and what is or is not in Mark's gospel?

Quote:The fact is the earliest gospel (Mark) has virtually nothing about "salvation" except : "Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Well there you go, Mark mentioning salvation. But here are some more verses from Mark:

"But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins’—he said to the paralytic—" Mark 2:10

"John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins." Mark 1:4

"When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Son, your sins are forgiven.’" Mark 2:5

"So they went out and proclaimed that all should repent." -Mark 6:12

"‘The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near; repent, and believe in the good news.’" Mark 1:15

Quote:and basically it doesn't say ANYTHING about that being accomplished by Jesus. The role of the "annointed one" was NEVER to "save from sin"

I'm not to sure what any of these concepts mean when coming from you. What do you think Mark take on it is? Or is Mark a victim of the same situation that plagued the other writers as well, the task of making sense of Jesus's unexpected and humiliating death? There doesn't seem to be many ways to go, after such a humiliating defeat, other than trying to redeem it as an act of salvation.

When a more recent messiah claimant, Sabbatai Zevi, under the threat of death, converted to Islam, how did his disillusioned follower's react? By believing that his conversion was a part of the messianic scheme, whose goal was to bring thousands of Muslims to Judaism.
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21-05-2015, 11:18 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 11:39 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  You said, "I don't see much about "salvation" or "cleasning from sins" in the gospels". I pointed out several passages in the gospels, now you're complaining about the gospels, and what is or is not in Mark's gospel?

Yes I am. If that was THE ORIGINAL message in the ORIGINAL gospel, then other shit later was obviously just invented, (just like the resurrection). Mark ended with an empty tomb.

Forgiveness of sin is not necessarily equated with "salvation", and you have no proof they thought of it that way. The fact is the Hebrews had been performing sacrifices for centuries to have their sins forgiven and did not equate that with "salvation". There was no concept of "salvation" in hebrew culture, so it would make no sense. Did Jebus say to the paralytic "You are saved" ? Nope.

(21-05-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not to sure what any of these concepts mean when coming from you. What do you think Mark take on it is? Or is Mark a victim of the same situation that plagued the other writers as well, the task of making sense of Jesus's unexpected and humiliating death? There doesn't seem to be many ways to go, after such a humiliating defeat, other than trying to redeem it as an act of salvation.


Typical obfuscation. We know what Mark's view was. That the "messianic secret" was revealed only to some. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Secret

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21-05-2015, 11:46 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 12:00 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 11:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes I am. If that was THE ORIGINAL message in the ORIGINAL gospel, then other shit later was obviously just invented, (just like the resurrection). Mark ended with an empty tomb.

Mark ended his original Gospel with:

"He said to them, “Do not be amazed! You seek Jesus of Nazareth, the crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Behold the place where they laid him.

But go and tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you.’”

He closes without describing their encounter with the risen Jesus. But he acknowledges that he had been risen, and that they would see him in Galilee.

Quote:The fact is the Hebrews had been performing sacrifices for centuries to have their sins forgiven and did not equate that with "salvation". There was no concept of "salvation" in hebrew culture, so it would make no sense.

Except of course in the 90 or so verses that speak of salvation in the OT:

"Jacob ate his fill; Jeshurun grew fat, and kicked. You grew fat, bloated, and gorged! He abandoned God who made him, and scoffed at the Rock of his salvation." -Deuteronomy 32:15

"1 Chronicles 16:23 Sing to the Lord, all the earth. Tell of his salvation from day to day."

"Psalm 13:5 But I trusted in your steadfast love; my heart shall rejoice in your salvation."

"Isaiah 12:3 With joy you will draw water from the wells of salvation."

"Isaiah 52:10 The Lord has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God."

etc...

Quote:Forgiveness of sin is not necessarily equated with "salvation", and you have no proof they thought of it that way.

Who is they? Christians or non-christian Jews? NT writers or OT writers?

"In Judaism, salvation is closely related to the idea of redemption, a saving from the states or circumstances that destroy the value of human existence"

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/...eferral=PM

This doesn't mean that the Christian concept of sin and salvation, are one and the same with Jewish concept, but so what?
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21-05-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 11:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 11:18 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes I am. If that was THE ORIGINAL message in the ORIGINAL gospel, then other shit later was obviously just invented, (just like the resurrection). Mark ended with an empty tomb.

Mark ended his original Gospel with:

"He said to them, “Do not be amazed! You seek Jesus of Nazareth, the crucified. He has been raised; he is not here. Behold the place where they laid him.

But go and tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him, as he told you.’”

He closes with out describing their encounter with the risen Jesus. But he acknowledges that he had been risen, and that they would see him in Galilee.


Bucky said 'original'.

"The most ancient and reliable copies of Mark then conclude with verse 8, which ends with the women fleeing from the empty tomb, and saying "nothing to anyone, because they were afraid." Many scholars take 16:8 as the original ending and believe the longer ending (16:9-20) was written later by someone else as a summary of Jesus' resurrection appearances and several miracles performed by Christians."

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21-05-2015, 11:55 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  Bucky said 'original'.

"The most ancient and reliable copies of Mark then conclude with verse 8, which ends with the women fleeing from the empty tomb, and saying "nothing to anyone, because they were afraid." Many scholars take 16:8 as the original ending and believe the longer ending (16:9-20) was written later by someone else as a summary of Jesus' resurrection appearances and several miracles performed by Christians."

And so did I.

The verses I quoted were all prior to verse 9, prior to the longer ending.
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21-05-2015, 12:06 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 11:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  He closes without describing their encounter with the risen Jesus. But he acknowledges that he had been risen, and that they would see him in Galilee.

He did nothing of the sort. That's your prejudice talking. As Dr. B.B. Scott (Christian seminary Professor of the NT), in his book "The Trouble with Resurrection", said the meaning of "coming to see" or "they would *see* " does not necessarily mean (along with the many other similar "seeings", it could easily have meant "come to understand". But whatever, no one says he "rose physically from the dead".

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid192117

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21-05-2015, 12:08 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
Quote:Absolutely fucking NONE.


Origen, writing 75 years before Eusebius invented this shit specifically comments on Book XVIII of Antiquities and never makes any reference to the supposed Josephus TF. This in spite of the fact that it would have seriously aided the argument he was trying to make concerning the later destruction of Jerusalem.

Instead, he falls back on the very weak "Jamesian" reference and concocts a story.

This tells us that the Book XX interpolation - which was probably fairly innocent, one xtian scribe wetting his pants and going "THERE'S JESUS!!!! - had occurred but the primary reference ( which was not innocent at all it was a deliberate attempt to write the godboy into the historical record ) had not.

Why don't you pull your head out of your ass and learn some stuff. It might help you look like less of a fuckhead?

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21-05-2015, 12:13 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 11:55 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 11:53 AM)Chas Wrote:  Bucky said 'original'.

"The most ancient and reliable copies of Mark then conclude with verse 8, which ends with the women fleeing from the empty tomb, and saying "nothing to anyone, because they were afraid." Many scholars take 16:8 as the original ending and believe the longer ending (16:9-20) was written later by someone else as a summary of Jesus' resurrection appearances and several miracles performed by Christians."

And so did I.

The verses I quoted were all prior to verse 9, prior to the longer ending.

It ends with the women not telling this to anyone. How would anyone know about it?

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