James, Jesus' brother
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21-05-2015, 03:39 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 01:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 12:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Sorry. The empty tomb may just as easily been allegorical, JUST LIKE the 500 others raised in Matthew, the temple curtain being torn, and and the earthquake (obviously all allegorical).

Is the empty tomb just as easily allegorical in all four of the Gospels, or just in Mark?

Was it allegorical in Mark, but taken as literal by the time of Matthew, since Matthew writes of accusations of the disciples stealing his body? Or were these accusations also allegorical?

Who knows. The first one to claim "exaltation" was Paul in his letters (which you would know if you had read my paper I linked to). Then Mark. I'm sure they all had different understandings, as reflected in the various tales, which changed as the cult grew, (ie the road to Emmaus where they "recognized" him later ... after eating with him). They walked with him and talked with someone they did not see as "extraordinary" in any way, yet "came to understand" who he was later. THAT is "seeing" him in the intelectual sense, not the literal physical sense. It's also possible that Paul meant that same sort of "seeing" in his "blinding flash of insight" when he claimed to have "seen" him. The problem with Fundie literalism, is it misses the meanings in ancient literature which was actually rather developed.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-05-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 03:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 01:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is the empty tomb just as easily allegorical in all four of the Gospels, or just in Mark?

Was it allegorical in Mark, but taken as literal by the time of Matthew, since Matthew writes of accusations of the disciples stealing his body? Or were these accusations also allegorical?

Who knows.

So you think that when Matthew writes of the accusations of the disciples stealing the body, that this could just as easily be allegorical?
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21-05-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 03:44 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 03:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Who knows.

So you think that when Matthew writes of the accusations of the disciples stealing the body, that this could just as easily be allegorical?

I SAID the understandings changed. How about you tell us what YOU think and stop with the inane questions. Or are you a chicken to reveal your own opinions ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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21-05-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  "Jesus scholars typically contend that he was a Galilean Jew living in a time of messianic and apocalyptic expectations.[15][16] Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, whose example he may have followed, and after John was executed, began his own preaching in Galilee for only about two to three years prior to his death. He preached the salvation, cleansing from sins, and the Kingdom of God, using parables with startling imagery, and was said to be a teacher and a faith healer. ... Some scholars credit the apocalyptic declarations of the Gospels to him, while others portray his Kingdom of God as a moral one, and not apocalyptic in nature.[18] He sent his apostles out to heal and to preach the Kingdom of God.[19] Later, he traveled to Jerusalem in Judea, where he caused a disturbance at the Temple.[15] It was the time of Passover, when political and religious tensions were high in Jerusalem.[15] The Gospels say that the temple guards (believed to be Sadducees) arrested him and turned him over to Pontius Pilate for execution. The movement he had started survived his death and was carried on by his brother James the Just and the apostles who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus.[20] It developed into Early Christianity (see also List of events in early Christianity)." -wiki

If you want to argue that Jesus was considerably less that what is stated above, you'd have to make a convincing case for it. I'll wait.
Let's focus on a few things here.
"he was a Galilean Jew "
1. Identity
a. Was he born with the name "Jesus"?
b. Did he acquire the name "Jesus"?
c. Did he have the name of "Jesus" when he was alleged to have been baptised by John the Baptist?
d. How do we know he was a Galilean Jew?
e. Is there a birth certificate?
f. Is there an official document of citizenship or residency?
Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist
2. How do we know that he was baptised by John the Baptist?
a. Was documentation kept regarding all people baptised by John?
b. How do we verify the identity of people baptised by John, did John view their identity papers? Was this identification reference documented along with records of all those baptised?
began his own preaching in Galilee for only about two to three years
He preached the salvation, cleansing from sins, and the Kingdom of God, using parables with startling imagery
3. How do we know that he had a "ministry" in Galilee?
a. Is there a registry of ministy clearly stating the organisation and the members and in particular the identification of the leader?
b. Are there verified manuscripts of what was preached?
c. Are there any documented accounts of what was preached by eye witnesses?
d. Have eye witness accounts been verified against each other in order to assess the accuracy of the accounts?
e. Were any documented eye witness accounts signed off by Jesus himself, by senior members of his ministry or by other eye witnesses?
was said to be a teacher and a faith healer
4. How do we know that some people thought he healed (material illness) through his faith?
a. Who (as an eye witness) thought Jesus to be a faith healer?
b. Who and what illness was Jesus supposed to have healed?
c. How do we know that person was sick?
d. How do we know that person was healed by Jesus faith?
e. What evidence is there that anyone ever been healed of material illness by faith?
Note: A remarkable event such as this requires an exceptional level of detailed supporting evidence.
He sent his apostles out to heal
5. Did his apostles heal anyone?
a. Who were his apostles and how do we know they existed?
b. Who did they heal and how do we know they were sick and subsequently healed?
c. Via what mechanism did this healing occur and how do we attribute the healing to this mechanism and no other?
Note: Remarkable events such as these require an exceptional level of detailed supporting evidence.
Later, he traveled to Jerusalem in Judea, where he caused a disturbance at the Temple
6. Is there any evidence that Jesus, the same person as all the other above alleged events, made this journey and caused this disturbance?
a. Is there any official travel documentation?
b. Is there any accounts by eye witnesses?
c. Is there any legal documentation regarding the disturbance? Including location, date, identification or the perpetrator, identification of the witnesses?
turned him over to Pontius Pilate for execution
7. Is there any evidence that Jesus, the same person as all the other above alleged events, was executed?
a. Is there any official documentation regarding Roman executions?
b. Is there any accounts by eye witnesses?
The movement he had started survived his death and was carried on by his brother James the Just
8. Is the inception of this movement or organisation documented along with a documented history of the succession of leadership?
a. What was the identifier for this movement?
b. Where is the documented history of leadership succession?
c. Who wrote this history, was it documented at the time of the event, by members of the organisation? Was it official legal documentation?
Note: Why is there confusion regarding the organisation that Jesus belonged to? Mark suggests it was the Nazarenes initiated by John the Baptist. Catholics claim that Peter took over leadership rather than James.
who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus
9. Is there evidence that members of the organisation, whom studied under Jesus, proclaimed that Jesus resurrected?
a. Any documented eye witness accounts?
b. Any medical reports of his death and subsequent life?
c. Is it possible for a person to die by asphyxiation or bleeding out and then come back to life 3 days later?
Note: A remarkable event such as this requires an exceptional level of detailed supporting evidence.
It developed into Early Christianity
10. Is there evidence that Jesus' organisation developed into Christianity?
a. Was the lineage of Jesus organisation clearly document at the time of events occuring, by eye witnesses and does this prove that Jesus organisation directly became Christianity?
Note: Mark's suggestion is that the Saul was in opposition/competition with the Nazarenes and subsequently won the battle, Saul's organisation became Christianity, the Nazarene's organisation died out without any succession link to Saul's.
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21-05-2015, 06:26 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Does Jesus at the bare minimum mean a Jewish sect leader with a title of Christus who was crucified under Pilot?
We know more than this, so I'm not sure why we need to ask what the bare minimum would be. That's like asking what is the bare minimum before you are no longer you, but someone else. I'd answer, after about 6 beers.
Of course we arent' asking you who you are, we aren't asking Jesus who Jesus is.
We are asking at minimum, given all the information available (2,000 years after the alledged events) who Jesus is.
There are many claims attributed to Jesus that off the bat we can be highly skeptical of. For example the miraculous events attributed to Jesus (virgin birth, water to wine, walking on water, faith healing, rising from the dead). Do we just then say "Argh, its all garbage" and be done with it? or do we then suggest to cut this down to a bare minimum? This is what I am doing here.
We also have accounts of Jesus' spoken words (sermon on the mount etc) where there was no documented manuscript, no documented eye witness accounts. Really nothing written down for at least 10 years and even then some material written down 100+ years later. To me it is obvious that this is a highly unreliable method when wanting to know what Jesus actually said. So I personally think we can throw all that away. Jesus' message, his spoken words were irrelevant as we have no reliable method to recount them.
So "Jesus" gets watered down further.
Even the name "Jesus" wasn't used util 1,600+ years after his alleged death. So we can throw out the name.
As far as I know (which admittidly isn't saying much) we can't know if Jesus was baptised by John the Baptist. Yet another "event" to throw away.
There is some tenous evidence of an execution of a "Christus" under Pilot. This was documented by Tacitus whom didn't know the person and didn't witness the event. This was documented as a side note (of insignificance) regarding the telling of the events of a great fire. Tacitus did not offer a source reference for this information and may not have seen the side note as significant enough to perform due dilligence. Tacitus did not mention the name Jesus or Yeshua just a commonly used title of "Christus".
So what do we have left of "Jesus" in order to claim that this person ever existed?
(21-05-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Does this person have to have had a name of Yeshua?
The only name attributed to him is Yeshua.
So the why call him Jesus?
(21-05-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  So there's particularly reason to doubt that his actual name was Yeshua.
There is no birth certificate, no official documentation. It seems common place for people to change their names (Didn't Saul change his name to Paul?), don't many muslims change their name?
"Yeshua in Hebrew is verbal derivative from "to rescue", "to deliver""
So, did Yeshua's parents think their own baby was a prophesised delieverer or did this baby upon growing up and having desire as a religious leader decide that the name "Yeshua" might help improve his public credibility?
(21-05-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Does this person have to have had a mother and father named Joseph and Mary?
Did you have to had a mother and father with names you associate with them? In reality the name you associate with them, are likely to be their real name.
Just trying to distinguish this Yeshua from the many other Yeshuas that were possibly walking around and preaching at the time. It seems the name Yeshua was common and the title Christus was common. How do we know all the alledged events are attributed to the same Yeshua?
What value would we get from suggesting that there is a reverend John Smith preaching today who did X event and that there is a reverend John Smith preaching today who did Y event? Is it the same John Smith that did both X and Y?
Perhaps there are events attributed to Yeshua which were done by different Yeshuas, or different people with different names or events taken from other, older myths or even new events that were imagined by the author.
What else do we have to go on?
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21-05-2015, 07:59 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 03:36 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 03:16 PM)Free Wrote:  Read it, and it's ridiculous. So totally full of the logical fallacies that you Jesus Mythicists bend down and worship.

Carrier is an internet historian, and although accredited, he can't even get a job due to his crackpot theories. He makes his money off of suckers like you just so he can pay the rent on his tar paper shack on the edge of town.

Drinking Beverage

So you believe Jesus was a real person? He performed miracles and shit?

Jesus was a real person who performed no miracles. His life was embellished by his followers who believed he was the Christ. Happens all the time with famous people.

After all, Elvis faked his own death, didn't he? Facepalm

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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22-05-2015, 03:20 AM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2015 03:30 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 03:39 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 01:27 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Is the empty tomb just as easily allegorical in all four of the Gospels, or just in Mark?

Was it allegorical in Mark, but taken as literal by the time of Matthew, since Matthew writes of accusations of the disciples stealing his body? Or were these accusations also allegorical?

Who knows. The first one to claim "exaltation" was Paul in his letters (which you would know if you had read my paper I linked to). Then Mark. I'm sure they all had different understandings, as reflected in the various tales, which changed as the cult grew, (ie the road to Emmaus where they "recognized" him later ... after eating with him). They walked with him and talked with someone they did not see as "extraordinary" in any way, yet "came to understand" who he was later. THAT is "seeing" him in the intelectual sense, not the literal physical sense. It's also possible that Paul meant that same sort of "seeing" in his "blinding flash of insight" when he claimed to have "seen" him. The problem with Fundie literalism, is it misses the meanings in ancient literature which was actually rather developed.

Agreed. If you thought you had literally seen the son of God you would describe him. Paul never describes the appearance of this Christ. Paul's Christ was a figment of his imagination.
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22-05-2015, 03:36 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 07:59 PM)Free Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 03:36 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  So you believe Jesus was a real person? He performed miracles and shit?

Jesus was a real person who performed no miracles. His life was embellished by his followers who believed he was the Christ. Happens all the time with famous people.

After all, Elvis faked his own death, didn't he? Facepalm

My 2c worth.

I largely agree with you, although I would say...

"Jesus was probably a real person...."

"His life was embellished by anonymous gospel authors who made out he was the Christ. This happens all the time with famous people..."
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22-05-2015, 03:49 AM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2015 03:56 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 05:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-05-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  "Jesus scholars typically contend that he was a Galilean Jew living in a time of messianic and apocalyptic expectations.[15][16] Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, whose example he may have followed, and after John was executed, began his own preaching in Galilee for only about two to three years prior to his death. He preached the salvation, cleansing from sins, and the Kingdom of God, using parables with startling imagery, and was said to be a teacher and a faith healer. ... Some scholars credit the apocalyptic declarations of the Gospels to him, while others portray his Kingdom of God as a moral one, and not apocalyptic in nature.[18] He sent his apostles out to heal and to preach the Kingdom of God.[19] Later, he traveled to Jerusalem in Judea, where he caused a disturbance at the Temple.[15] It was the time of Passover, when political and religious tensions were high in Jerusalem.[15] The Gospels say that the temple guards (believed to be Sadducees) arrested him and turned him over to Pontius Pilate for execution. The movement he had started survived his death and was carried on by his brother James the Just and the apostles who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus.[20] It developed into Early Christianity (see also List of events in early Christianity)." -wiki

If you want to argue that Jesus was considerably less that what is stated above, you'd have to make a convincing case for it. I'll wait.
Let's focus on a few things here.
"he was a Galilean Jew "
1. Identity
a. Was he born with the name "Jesus"?
b. Did he acquire the name "Jesus"?
c. Did he have the name of "Jesus" when he was alleged to have been baptised by John the Baptist?
d. How do we know he was a Galilean Jew?
e. Is there a birth certificate?
f. Is there an official document of citizenship or residency?
Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist
2. How do we know that he was baptised by John the Baptist?
a. Was documentation kept regarding all people baptised by John?
b. How do we verify the identity of people baptised by John, did John view their identity papers? Was this identification reference documented along with records of all those baptised?
began his own preaching in Galilee for only about two to three years
He preached the salvation, cleansing from sins, and the Kingdom of God, using parables with startling imagery
3. How do we know that he had a "ministry" in Galilee?
a. Is there a registry of ministy clearly stating the organisation and the members and in particular the identification of the leader?
b. Are there verified manuscripts of what was preached?
c. Are there any documented accounts of what was preached by eye witnesses?
d. Have eye witness accounts been verified against each other in order to assess the accuracy of the accounts?
e. Were any documented eye witness accounts signed off by Jesus himself, by senior members of his ministry or by other eye witnesses?
was said to be a teacher and a faith healer
4. How do we know that some people thought he healed (material illness) through his faith?
a. Who (as an eye witness) thought Jesus to be a faith healer?
b. Who and what illness was Jesus supposed to have healed?
c. How do we know that person was sick?
d. How do we know that person was healed by Jesus faith?
e. What evidence is there that anyone ever been healed of material illness by faith?
Note: A remarkable event such as this requires an exceptional level of detailed supporting evidence.
He sent his apostles out to heal
5. Did his apostles heal anyone?
a. Who were his apostles and how do we know they existed?
b. Who did they heal and how do we know they were sick and subsequently healed?
c. Via what mechanism did this healing occur and how do we attribute the healing to this mechanism and no other?
Note: Remarkable events such as these require an exceptional level of detailed supporting evidence.
Later, he traveled to Jerusalem in Judea, where he caused a disturbance at the Temple
6. Is there any evidence that Jesus, the same person as all the other above alleged events, made this journey and caused this disturbance?
a. Is there any official travel documentation?
b. Is there any accounts by eye witnesses?
c. Is there any legal documentation regarding the disturbance? Including location, date, identification or the perpetrator, identification of the witnesses?
turned him over to Pontius Pilate for execution
7. Is there any evidence that Jesus, the same person as all the other above alleged events, was executed?
a. Is there any official documentation regarding Roman executions?
b. Is there any accounts by eye witnesses?
The movement he had started survived his death and was carried on by his brother James the Just
8. Is the inception of this movement or organisation documented along with a documented history of the succession of leadership?
a. What was the identifier for this movement?
b. Where is the documented history of leadership succession?
c. Who wrote this history, was it documented at the time of the event, by members of the organisation? Was it official legal documentation?
Note: Why is there confusion regarding the organisation that Jesus belonged to? Mark suggests it was the Nazarenes initiated by John the Baptist. Catholics claim that Peter took over leadership rather than James.
who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus
9. Is there evidence that members of the organisation, whom studied under Jesus, proclaimed that Jesus resurrected?
a. Any documented eye witness accounts?
b. Any medical reports of his death and subsequent life?
c. Is it possible for a person to die by asphyxiation or bleeding out and then come back to life 3 days later?
Note: A remarkable event such as this requires an exceptional level of detailed supporting evidence.
It developed into Early Christianity
10. Is there evidence that Jesus' organisation developed into Christianity?
a. Was the lineage of Jesus organisation clearly document at the time of events occuring, by eye witnesses and does this prove that Jesus organisation directly became Christianity?
Note: Mark's suggestion is that the Saul was in opposition/competition with the Nazarenes and subsequently won the battle, Saul's organisation became Christianity, the Nazarene's organisation died out without any succession link to Saul's.

Re "Note: Mark's suggestion is that the Saul was in opposition/competition with the Nazarenes and subsequently won the battle, Saul's organisation became Christianity, the Nazarene's organisation died out without any succession link to Saul's."

Thanks for understanding my opinions. I would to take it one step further and say that Paul was an agent of the Roman government, and a few years later the original authors of the gospels were employees of the Roman government too.

Paul was an example of prewar Roman government propaganda, and the gospels were the government's post war propaganda effort.

What eventually emerged as Christianity in the later second century was a combination of the two. The original motivation behind creating all this nonsense (the suppression of militaristic Jews) was pretty much forgotten as the second century progressed.
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22-05-2015, 07:12 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 05:00 PM)Stevil Wrote:  1. Identity
a. Was he born with the name "Jesus"?
Most likely
How do we know he was a Galilean Jew?

Because there’s no indication that he was any other jew. Nor any particular reason to doubt this attribute of him. It’s not as if being Galilean was a requirement for a messiah, or served any real theological purpose. So the likelihood of the writers making this aspect up, is fairly slim.


Quote:e. Is there a birth certificate?
f. Is there an official document of citizenship or residency?

Is there childhood videos of Abe Lincoln?

No, It’s not there should of been these things for folks living in that area at the time.

Quote:Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist
2. How do we know that he was baptised by John the Baptist?
a. Was documentation kept regarding all people baptised by John?
b. How do we verify the identity of people baptised by John, did John view their identity papers? Was this identification reference documented along with records of all those baptised?


Most likely. It’s mentioned in all the Gospels. It’s not as if we have an account of him being baptized by anyone else. In fact John Baptist was an individual that Josephus even mentioned.

Quote:3. How do we know that he had a "ministry" in Galilee?

The Gospel accounts, the messages found in them, whose ideas, concepts, and beliefs are repeated in them. So there was a ministry belonging to somebody, which is sourced to only one person, and that is Jesus.

Quote:c. Are there any documented accounts of what was preached by eye witnesses?
d. Have eye witness accounts been verified against each other in order to assess the accuracy of the accounts?

Very few people could read let alone write at that time, so much of what's known about Jesus was conveyed through oral tradition, that ended being embodied in the various gospel accounts. So historians would typically comb through these texts, noting particular congruencies, and oddities, whether one event, or saying, or teaching, is one-off, or not. Not every aspect is deemed as historical, some aspects are deemed as part of the faith traditions, rather than historically accurate. If one part is not recognized as historical, it’s recognized as something else.

Quote:4. How do we know that some people thought he healed (material illness) through his faith?

Because he’s attested to in these accounts as being a faith healer, and faith healer were a dime a dozen at the time.

Quote:What evidence is there that anyone ever been healed of material illness by faith?
Note: A remarkable event such as this requires an exceptional level of detailed supporting evidence.

When historians agree that Jesus likely was a faith healer, it doesn’t mean that they believe he miraculously healed people, anymore so than us acknowledging that Benny Hinn is a faith healer, means that we buy into his charlatanry. So noting that Jesus was a faith healer, is not claiming that he miraculously healed anybody.


Quote:a. Who were his apostles and how do we know they existed?

Uhm, they are mentioned in the gospels, Paul writes of his encounters with them also.

Quote:Later, he traveled to Jerusalem in Judea, where he caused a disturbance at the Temple. Is there any evidence that Jesus, the same person as all the other above alleged events, made this journey and caused this disturbance?

Is there any evidence that it was another person? If only one particular person was attributed to this event, we have very little reason to doubt that they were one and the same.

Quote:a. Is there any official travel documentation?
b. Is there any accounts by eye witnesses?
c. Is there any legal documentation regarding the disturbance? Including location, date, identification or the perpetrator, identification of the witnesses?

Why not just ask if their was any camera footage? How many eye witness accounts do you think we have of anyone at the time? Even for one of the most important Historical figures at the time, Pilate, we don’t have any eye witness account for. Eye witness accounts are a rare commodity, and almost never exist.

Quote:7. Is there any evidence that Jesus, the same person as all the other above alleged events, was executed?
a. Is there any official documentation regarding Roman executions?

There’s a variety of writings supporting Jesus execution, from the gospels, to Paul, to Josephus, and Tacitus.

“Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus.” -Tacitus

There seems to be no particular reason to believe it was another person. Even Tacitus indicates the Christus crucified by Pilate, was the Christus of Christians.

Quote:Note: Why is there confusion regarding the organisation that Jesus belonged to? Mark suggests it was the Nazarenes initiated by John the Baptist. Catholics claim that Peter took over leadership rather than James.

Well Mark labels all Jewish christians as Nazarenes, though we know that their were various groups which were not all one and the same, like the Essenes. In fact there is no indication that John the Baptist of James were even a part of the nazarenes, other the the fact that they were Jewish, lol. There’s no early writings indicating that these individuals were part of the Nazarenes.

I never recalled saying anything about how organized christianity arose, or the catholics view on succession either, so I'll just ignore those questions.

Quote:who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus
9. Is there evidence that members of the organisation, whom studied under Jesus, proclaimed that Jesus resurrected?

Did they claim something else happened after he died?

Resurrection was attributed as early as we can trace the early christian beliefs. The NT writings, Mark and Paul. And pretty much every single christian sect orthodox, or even ones deemed as heretical acknowledged the resurrection. In the Gospels of Matthew, the writers notes of accusations going around at the time, that the disciples stole the body of Jesus. An account that is hard to make sense of unless, those rumors where abundant, and troublesome enough for Matthew to mention.

Is there any evidence to assume those that studied under Jesus believed something other than he was resurrected? And the answer is no. In fact there is no evidence that any christians sect or movement at the time, didn’t believe in the resurrection in one shape or form.

Quote: Is it possible for a person to die by asphyxiation or bleeding out and then come back to life 3 days later?

For you? Of course not. It’s impossible. As a methodological naturalist, perhaps we should agree with those folks highlighted in Matthew, that the disciples stole his body, and that they lied to everybody claiming he resurrected.

Quote:Note: A remarkable event such as this requires an exceptional level of detailed supporting evidence.

So you say, but not in any way true, other than for you.

Quote:Is there evidence that Jesus' organisation developed into Christianity?

Yes, like the two 2 billion Christians living today.

Quote:Mark's suggestion is that the Saul was in opposition/competition with the Nazarenes and subsequently won the battle, Saul's organisation became Christianity, the Nazarene's organisation died out without any succession link to Saul’s.

The only opposition between Paul and and James, and some of the other disciples (who were not nazarenes), was their views on the role of the Jewish ritual law, no other dispute or theological disagreement existed between them. There is no evidence anywhere to suggest that there was any disagreement beyond this one point. There is no evidence of two competing Christianities between them, other than one that favored maintaining the ritual practices, and one that didn’t see it as a mandatory requirement for membership in the Christian community.

There are still Jewish Christians today, Messianic Jews, some where around 350,000. But it appeals more so to jews than gentiles. And the Gentiles are the bigger audience.

**I did skip over some of your questions, because many of them seemed redundant.
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