James, Jesus' brother
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20-05-2015, 09:48 PM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(20-05-2015 05:25 PM)Free Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 03:16 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Garbage as usual from you free.

When you've discussed this topic as much as I have over the past 20 years or so, then there is nothing "garbage" about it.

The Jesus Mythicist argument is such a joke that most historians ignore it due to its sheer fucking lunacy. It's nothing but one logical fallacy after another, with not one good solid argument EVER being presented.

Go ahead, provide an argument for Mythicism, and watch how easily your logically fallacious ass is exposed. Go on, it will only take me all of 2 minutes to point it out.

Get cracking ...

Drinking Beverage

Is there a poll of "historians" on the subject ?

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21-05-2015, 02:00 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(20-05-2015 07:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 06:45 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Your question is very pertinent, because it raises a very important issue.

I do not think Paul's Christ was Yeshua.

If so, therefore, the Nazarenes did not think Paul's Christ was Yeshua either.


So Paul knew the Nazarenes, and James and Yeshua's other disciples, but knew next to nothing about their Yeshua? I mean he wrote of their disagreements about circumcisions and the jewish ritual laws, but nothing about any other disagreements with them. You believe he did this deliberately, that it was a calculated move on his part to avoid even mentioning any other disputes, so that the readers of his letters would believe he believed in the same Jesus as them?

"So Paul knew the Nazarenes,"

Yes.

"...but knew next to nothing about their Yeshua?"

Correct. Don't forget the gospels hadn't been written until after the first Jewish War of 66 to 70. Paul was hanging around in the 50s and early 60s. So he knew nothing of a parable preaching, miracle working, charismatic teacher (the character first created in the gospel of Mark). Paul may have known something of a Yeshua, a failed political insurgent who had been executed a few decades earlier, but that person was largely irrelevant to Paul and that person was not his Christ. If that person was his Christ he would undoubtedly have talked about what that person (the son of God no less) said or did, but Paul didn't. Paul would've been very interested to have learned about Yeshua from Yeshua's family and disciples, but Paul wasn't. These facts are undeniable.

We have at least six of Paul's genuine letters in which he discusses his innermost thoughts and insecurities, and there is almost no mention of a flesh and blood Jesus in them.

Nor is there any mention of a flesh and blood Jesus in the letters written by James and Jude, who may well have been Yeshua's brothers. The reason is Yeshua hadn't been turned into a hero figure yet, because the gospels were yet to be written.
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21-05-2015, 02:05 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(20-05-2015 04:39 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 12:54 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Mark, you don't have a single contemporary source. We all know that jesus freaks made up stories with fictional heros.... not the least of which was the godboy himself.
Why assume that this is anything but more of the same?

Just curious here but what does it matter if he was a real ir imagined person? If he never existed, the stuff about him is made up. If a historical jesus did exist, he was a man and the stuff about him is made up. Who cares? The claims made about him are just as unlikely whether he was real or made up.

Assume for a second that he existed, does that make you believe the stories more than if he was made up? To me, it makes no difference because the claims made about any person are false until supported.

Hi. Yeah I personally don't care whether Jesus existed or not. The character in the gospels is a cartoon.

Yet I know that it seriously matters to Christians whether their Jeebus existed, and it's of great importance in assessing the legitimacy of Christianity.
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21-05-2015, 02:18 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(20-05-2015 06:01 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:James died in 62CE. We do have Josephus writing about him in the 70's or 80's (see post 48).

It's a stretch to use those Josephan passages for much of anything. We simply can never know how much of them were interpolated. Just because some later xtian wet his pants when he saw the word "christos" in Josephus' writings does not mean that he was talking about the godboy. Virtually everyone in that Book XX passage (except the two Romans) was a "christos" ( to a jew - "anointed" at one time or another. Sorry but Yakov was far too common a name to fall for any of this xtian crapola.

Quote:There is the mention of James in the gospel of Thomas (?maybe second century).

No contemporary.

Quote:Also some authors, including Robert Eisenman, (who wrote a 1000 page tome about James) think that there are some writings from James in the dead sea scrolls.

Xtians have been trying to work up something with the DSS since 1947.. So far, nada.

Quote:Then there is the epistle of James in the bible, which admittedly mail may not have been written by "James," but it was obviously written by a Jew, not a Christian.

The earliest extant manuscript is from the 3d century. There is a significant school of thought that it is pseudonymous.

Quote:I admit that the other sources are not contemporary. Yet I'll make the point again that there was no evangelical need to admit the existence of James, so why would they fabricate his existence?

Apologetics are not my game. Let them make up their own excuses for the bullshit.

Quote:The book of Acts, probably written in the early second century, does mention James and does indirectly admit that James was in charge of the community of Jesus followers. The book attacks also mentions the Nazarenes, who it refers to as pests who stir up trouble.

Not contemporary.


Mark, I won't give the fuckers an inch because they will take a mile. I don't give a damn about their beliefs, traditions, or phony gospel stories.

Well.... I think the probable existence of James does much more to undermine Christianity than bolster it. If James did exist, he was fundamentalist Jew, not a Christian. He thought his brother was just an ordinary guy... not the son of God, not a miracle working preacher, and not someone who rose from the dead.
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21-05-2015, 02:28 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(20-05-2015 07:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 06:45 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Your question is very pertinent, because it raises a very important issue.

I do not think Paul's Christ was Yeshua.

If so, therefore, the Nazarenes did not think Paul's Christ was Yeshua either.


So Paul knew the Nazarenes, and James and Yeshua's other disciples, but knew next to nothing about their Yeshua? I mean he wrote of their disagreements about circumcisions and the jewish ritual laws, but nothing about any other disagreements with them. You believe he did this deliberately, that it was a calculated move on his part to avoid even mentioning any other disputes, so that the readers of his letters would believe he believed in the same Jesus as them?

"so that the readers of his letters would believe he believed in the same Jesus as them?"

What makes you think the Nazarenes "believed in Jesus?" They were Jews. They believed in the one and only God, Yahweh. They may have thought one of their long departed executed leaders, Yeshua, had been a decent sort of chap, but nothing more than that.

I'll say it again. It is highly likely that Yeshua was never on Paul's radar. I strongly suspect the mentions of "Jesus" in Paul's letters are interpolations where he had only written "Christ."
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21-05-2015, 03:12 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 02:28 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What makes you think the Nazarenes "believed in Jesus?" They were Jews.
What is meant by the term Jesus?
What is the lowest common denominator by which if you strip one more thing then it ceases to be Jesus?

The term "Jesus" wasn't even used until 1600s right?

Does Jesus at the bare minimum mean a Jewish sect leader with a title of Christus who was crucified under Pilot?
Does this person have to have had a name of Yeshua?
Does this person have to have had a mother and father named Joseph and Mary?
Was Yeshua a common name? Was it a birth name or a name commonly taken up by Jewish leaders?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshua_%28name%29
"Yeshua in Hebrew is verbal derivative from "to rescue", "to deliver".[9] Its usage among the Jews of the Second Temple Period, the Biblical Aramaic/Hebrew name יֵשׁוּעַ Yeshua‘ was common: the Hebrew Bible mentions several individuals with this name"
Was Christus a common title?
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21-05-2015, 06:07 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 02:28 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(20-05-2015 07:16 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So Paul knew the Nazarenes, and James and Yeshua's other disciples, but knew next to nothing about their Yeshua? I mean he wrote of their disagreements about circumcisions and the jewish ritual laws, but nothing about any other disagreements with them. You believe he did this deliberately, that it was a calculated move on his part to avoid even mentioning any other disputes, so that the readers of his letters would believe he believed in the same Jesus as them?

"so that the readers of his letters would believe he believed in the same Jesus as them?"

What makes you think the Nazarenes "believed in Jesus?" They were Jews. They believed in the one and only God, Yahweh. They may have thought one of their long departed executed leaders, Yeshua, had been a decent sort of chap, but nothing more than that.

I'll say it again. It is highly likely that Yeshua was never on Paul's radar. I strongly suspect the mentions of "Jesus" in Paul's letters are interpolations where he had only written "Christ."

Mark,
Can't remember if we ever talked about whether the Nazarenes were the same as the Nazirites. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazirite

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21-05-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 03:12 AM)Stevil Wrote:  What is meant by the term Jesus?
What is the lowest common denominator by which if you strip one more thing then it ceases to be Jesus?


"Jesus scholars typically contend that he was a Galilean Jew living in a time of messianic and apocalyptic expectations.[15][16] Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, whose example he may have followed, and after John was executed, began his own preaching in Galilee for only about two to three years prior to his death. He preached the salvation, cleansing from sins, and the Kingdom of God, using parables with startling imagery, and was said to be a teacher and a faith healer. ... Some scholars credit the apocalyptic declarations of the Gospels to him, while others portray his Kingdom of God as a moral one, and not apocalyptic in nature.[18] He sent his apostles out to heal and to preach the Kingdom of God.[19] Later, he traveled to Jerusalem in Judea, where he caused a disturbance at the Temple.[15] It was the time of Passover, when political and religious tensions were high in Jerusalem.[15] The Gospels say that the temple guards (believed to be Sadducees) arrested him and turned him over to Pontius Pilate for execution. The movement he had started survived his death and was carried on by his brother James the Just and the apostles who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus.[20] It developed into Early Christianity (see also List of events in early Christianity)." -wiki

If you want to argue that Jesus was considerably less that what is stated above, you'd have to make a convincing case for it. I'll wait.

Quote:Does Jesus at the bare minimum mean a Jewish sect leader with a title of Christus who was crucified under Pilot?

We know more than this, so I'm not sure why we need to ask what the bare minimum would be. That's like asking what is the bare minimum before you are no longer you, but someone else. I'd answer, after about 6 beers.

Quote:Does this person have to have had a name of Yeshua?

The only name attributed to him is Yeshua. So there's particularly reason to doubt that his actual name was Yeshua.

Quote:Does this person have to have had a mother and father named Joseph and Mary?

Did you have to had a mother and father with names you associate with them? In reality the name you associate with them, are likely to be their real name.

Quote:Was Yeshua a common name?

Yes, like tom, joe, jessica, etc...

Quote:Was Christus a common title?

From Ancient Greek Χριστός (Khristós), proper noun use of χριστός (khristós, “the anointed one”), calqued after Hebrew מָשִׁיחַ (māshīaχ, “anointed”).

It's a title commonly attributed to messiah claimants, so the title would have been as common as messiah claimants were at the time.
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21-05-2015, 07:57 AM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2015 08:09 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 06:47 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  "Jesus scholars typically contend that he was a Galilean Jew living in a time of messianic and apocalyptic expectations.[15][16] Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist, whose example he may have followed, and after John was executed, began his own preaching in Galilee for only about two to three years prior to his death. He preached the salvation, cleansing from sins, and the Kingdom of God, using parables with startling imagery, and was said to be a teacher and a faith healer. ... Some scholars credit the apocalyptic declarations of the Gospels to him, while others portray his Kingdom of God as a moral one, and not apocalyptic in nature.[18] He sent his apostles out to heal and to preach the Kingdom of God.[19] Later, he traveled to Jerusalem in Judea, where he caused a disturbance at the Temple.[15] It was the time of Passover, when political and religious tensions were high in Jerusalem.[15] The Gospels say that the temple guards (believed to be Sadducees) arrested him and turned him over to Pontius Pilate for execution. The movement he had started survived his death and was carried on by his brother James the Just and the apostles who proclaimed the resurrection of Jesus.[20] It developed into Early Christianity (see also List of events in early Christianity)." -wiki

If you want to argue that Jesus was considerably less that what is stated above, you'd have to make a convincing case for it. I'll wait.

Why ? Because you or some Wkii author say so ? What background enables you to say anything on the subject ? I don't see much about "salvation" or "cleasning from sins" in the gospels. When asked by the young man what he had to do to get into heaven, all Yeshua said was "keep the commandments". That's absolutely nothing different than before, and he said NOTHING about "saving" him. The Wiki stuff is just a rehash of what is commonly thought to be what he said and was about. You really have no clue what he actually said and did, and the fact the gospels are so full of hype, exaggerations, and contradictions is more than a good reason to doubt the entire thing. There are all kinds of reasons (many of which Richard Carrier discusses .. but not all) to question the entire ball of crap.

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21-05-2015, 08:13 AM
RE: James, Jesus' brother
(21-05-2015 07:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don't see much about "salvation" or "cleasning from sins" in the gospels.


"to give knowledge of salvation to his people
by the forgiveness of their sins." Luke 1:77

"and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.”’ Luke 3:6

"Then Jesus said to him, ‘Today salvation has come to this house, because he too is a son of Abraham. Luke 19:9"

"She will bear a son, and you are to name him Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.’- Matt 1:21

"When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.’" Matt 9:2

"But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins’ Matt 9:6

"I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance.’" Luke 5:32

etc...

Quote:What background enables you to say anything on the subject ?

Apparently more so than you, since you don't believe the Gospels spoke much of anything about sin or being saved.

Quote:You really have no clue what he actually said and did

You do? So what did he actually say, and do then?
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