Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
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26-07-2016, 08:57 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
Ok. Let's look at this scenario.

An adult male with an AR15 assault rifle opens up in a mall. He has the double-drum magazines loaded giving him about a hundred rounds before he has to reload.

Georgie Gunboy is standing there with his S&W .44 Magnum revolver (just like CLint's) and his "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands" belt buckle. Georgie Gunboy has trained extensively with his weapon. By extensively, he goes target shooting with his buddies occasionally. Maybe he shot a critter with it.

George Gunboy has no concept of hostage rescue, crisis intervention, tactical shooting, speed reloading or combat experience.
He has six shots before he has to reload.
Giving Georgie the benefit of the doubt, he probably has practiced fast draws, but only from a hip holster (like the Duke) not a concealed carry holster like he is wearing now.


How many shots will Georgie get off before he's mowed down by the shooter?

How many innocent civilians will Georgie hit?

What are the odds of Law Enforcement showing up and blasting Georgie?

How many ways could this scenario go wrong?

What are the chances it could go right?

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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26-07-2016, 09:02 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 08:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 08:37 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Bullshit. In the Florida gay bar massacre there was an armed off-duty policeman working security who engaged the shooter. In my Gun-free zone High School we had armed police providing security. Gun-free zone does not mean that there are no guns, it means only trained professionals carry them.

The Dallas shooting occurred with plenty of open-carry activists and police around, and that didn't deter the shooter either.

Good guys with guns aren't stopping mass shootings and the Dallas incident is a great example of how it can actually make it harder for law enforcement to assess who is actually the threat.

In a country with more mass shootings than any other and more guns than any other (developed nations that is), we should be seeing more mass shootings stopped than any other, but we don't...at all. It's almost as if that tired ass "good guys with guns" rhetoric is nothing more than bullshit Consider

Guaranteed the shooter used a sniper attack, away from.the armed cops and open carriers because he understood the risk of just walking up to the crowd and shooting. He would have been dead quick, and he knew it.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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26-07-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 08:57 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  Ok. Let's look at this scenario.

An adult male with an AR15 assault rifle opens up in a mall. He has the double-drum magazines loaded giving him about a hundred rounds before he has to reload.

Georgie Gunboy is standing there with his S&W .44 Magnum revolver (just like CLint's) and his "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands" belt buckle. Georgie Gunboy has trained extensively with his weapon. By extensively, he goes target shooting with his buddies occasionally. Maybe he shot a critter with it.

George Gunboy has no concept of hostage rescue, crisis intervention, tactical shooting, speed reloading or combat experience.
He has six shots before he has to reload.
Giving Georgie the benefit of the doubt, he probably has practiced fast draws, but only from a hip holster (like the Duke) not a concealed carry holster like he is wearing now.


How many shots will Georgie get off before he's mowed down by the shooter?

How many innocent civilians will Georgie hit?

What are the odds of Law Enforcement showing up and blasting Georgie?

How many ways could this scenario go wrong?

What are the chances it could go right?

You don't know guns, do you????

First off --- those drum magazines are notoriously unreliable. Anyone who knows anything about an AR-15 would go with 30 round mags.

Second off -- NOBODY I know carries a model 29 Smith..... It's a boat anchor....

Third off --- hypothetical situations like this are the resort of someone who hasn't got enough facts to properly analyze a situation..... Don't know?? Make shit up....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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26-07-2016, 09:05 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 09:02 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 08:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The Dallas shooting occurred with plenty of open-carry activists and police around, and that didn't deter the shooter either.

Good guys with guns aren't stopping mass shootings and the Dallas incident is a great example of how it can actually make it harder for law enforcement to assess who is actually the threat.

In a country with more mass shootings than any other and more guns than any other (developed nations that is), we should be seeing more mass shootings stopped than any other, but we don't...at all. It's almost as if that tired ass "good guys with guns" rhetoric is nothing more than bullshit Consider

Guaranteed the shooter used a sniper attack, away from.the armed cops and open carriers because he understood the risk of just walking up to the crowd and shooting. He would have been dead quick, and he knew it.

Then I guess all those handguns would have been pretty useless...

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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26-07-2016, 09:07 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 09:02 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 08:53 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  The Dallas shooting occurred with plenty of open-carry activists and police around, and that didn't deter the shooter either.

Good guys with guns aren't stopping mass shootings and the Dallas incident is a great example of how it can actually make it harder for law enforcement to assess who is actually the threat.

In a country with more mass shootings than any other and more guns than any other (developed nations that is), we should be seeing more mass shootings stopped than any other, but we don't...at all. It's almost as if that tired ass "good guys with guns" rhetoric is nothing more than bullshit Consider

Guaranteed the shooter used a sniper attack, away from.the armed cops and open carriers because he understood the risk of just walking up to the crowd and shooting. He would have been dead quick, and he knew it.

And yet, not a single "good guy with a gun" stopped him. Why? Because "good guys with guns" don't stop mass shootings. And once again, in a country with more guns, more "good guys with guns," and more mass shootings than any other, we should have more mass shootings stopped by "good guys with guns." But we don't.

What happened instead in Dallas? The police believed there to be multiple suspects shooting into the crowds and even tweeted out a photo of an open-carry activist saying he was a suspect. So not only did the "good guys with guns" not stop a mass shooting, they made it increasingly more confusing and could have gotten themselves killed in the chaos.

Keep making excuses to perpetuate your fantasy/myth. Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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26-07-2016, 09:12 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 09:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 09:02 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Guaranteed the shooter used a sniper attack, away from.the armed cops and open carriers because he understood the risk of just walking up to the crowd and shooting. He would have been dead quick, and he knew it.

And yet, not a single "good guy with a gun" stopped him. Why? Because "good guys with guns" don't stop mass shootings. And once again, in a country with more guns, more "good guys with guns," and more mass shootings than any other, we should have more mass shootings stopped by "good guys with guns." But we don't.

What happened instead in Dallas? The police believed there to be multiple suspects shooting into the crowds and even tweeted out a photo of an open-carry activist saying he was a suspect. So not only did the "good guys with guns" not stop a mass shooting, they made it increasingly more confusing and could have gotten themselves killed in the chaos.

Keep making excuses to perpetuate your fantasy/myth. Drinking Beverage

And keep making more "gun free zones" --- wannabe killers need more hunting grounds....

.............

When some asshole goes in and shoots up a gun show --- you can tell us that "good guys with a gun, don't stop mass shootings" -- and we'll believe you......

In the meantime -- keep skewing the tables in favor of the homicidal maniacs looking for their 15 minutes of fame....

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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26-07-2016, 09:14 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 09:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 09:02 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Guaranteed the shooter used a sniper attack, away from.the armed cops and open carriers because he understood the risk of just walking up to the crowd and shooting. He would have been dead quick, and he knew it.

And yet, not a single "good guy with a gun" stopped him. Why? Because "good guys with guns" don't stop mass shootings. And once again, in a country with more guns, more "good guys with guns," and more mass shootings than any other, we should have more mass shootings stopped by "good guys with guns." But we don't.

What happened instead in Dallas? The police believed there to be multiple suspects shooting into the crowds and even tweeted out a photo of an open-carry activist saying he was a suspect. So not only did the "good guys with guns" not stop a mass shooting, they made it increasingly more confusing and could have gotten themselves killed in the chaos.

Keep making excuses to perpetuate your fantasy/myth. Drinking Beverage

Again, most mass shootings occur in gun free zones. Or, in a case like this, a sniper attack where even the cops can't get to the shooter, and had to use explosives to take him out.

You know why mass shooters don't walk into a Cabela's or Bass Pro Shop? Or a gun show? Or the NRA convention?

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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26-07-2016, 09:23 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 09:05 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  You don't know guns, do you????

I have owned a variety of firearms. I have also trained in their use. One of my instructors was a police sergeant, certified armorer and firearms trainer for his department. He let me go through the police training and qualification course, informally, and I qualified with pistol and shotgun. For several years I had a CCW permit, although I have not renewed it.

I know, respect and admire guns.

Strike 1 for you.

(26-07-2016 09:05 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  First off --- those drum magazines are notoriously unreliable. Anyone who knows anything about an AR-15 would go with 30 round mags.

Those magazines were used in the Colorado theatre shooting, IIRC.
Many of the shooters carry multiple weapons and multiple magazines.
Both of those invalidate your response.

Strike 2.

(26-07-2016 09:05 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Second off -- NOBODY I know carries a model 29 Smith..... It's a boat anchor....

This is an arguing point?
Would you rather he have a Glock with an extended mag?
Maybe a Colt Model 1911? Or a Browning 9mm?
Sig Sauer? For the redneck with a refined taste?

Say he has a semi-auto with an older mag. 15, 16 rounds tops.

Now how many civilians can Georgie shoot by accident?

This one is so pointless, I'm not even calling it a strike.

(26-07-2016 09:05 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Third off --- hypothetical situations like this are the resort of someone who hasn't got enough facts to properly analyze a situation..... Don't know?? Make shit up....

No. This hypothetical situation is exactly what people like you are postulating.

You are saying that if an armed civilian was involved in a mass shooting that they would be able to stop the attack and save lives.

We are both considering the same hypothetical situation.

Unfortunately for you, history and statistics are on my side.

That'd be Strike 3.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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26-07-2016, 09:28 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 09:12 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  In the meantime -- keep skewing the tables in favor of the homicidal maniacs looking for their 15 minutes of fame....

How can you argue against the statistics from other countries?

Australia enacted strict gun control laws after the McDonald's shooting, back in the early 90's (IIRC). How many mass shootings since?

England?

Japan?

It's not working.

Something has to change.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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26-07-2016, 09:33 AM
RE: Japan - 15 killed in knife attack
(26-07-2016 09:14 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(26-07-2016 09:07 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  And yet, not a single "good guy with a gun" stopped him. Why? Because "good guys with guns" don't stop mass shootings. And once again, in a country with more guns, more "good guys with guns," and more mass shootings than any other, we should have more mass shootings stopped by "good guys with guns." But we don't.

What happened instead in Dallas? The police believed there to be multiple suspects shooting into the crowds and even tweeted out a photo of an open-carry activist saying he was a suspect. So not only did the "good guys with guns" not stop a mass shooting, they made it increasingly more confusing and could have gotten themselves killed in the chaos.

Keep making excuses to perpetuate your fantasy/myth. Drinking Beverage

Again, most mass shootings occur in gun free zones. Or, in a case like this, a sniper attack where even the cops can't get to the shooter, and had to use explosives to take him out.

You know why mass shooters don't walk into a Cabela's or Bass Pro Shop? Or a gun show? Or the NRA convention?

Once again, no examples of mass shootings stopped by "good guys with guns." I even give you an example of a mass shooting that not only wasn't in a gun-free zone, but was populated by cops and open-carry activists, and they still didn't stop it.

But yeah, what would happen if, in a gun-rich environment, someone decided to start shooting everyone? Want to bet that (just like in Dallas) it would be mass hysteria with no one being sure who the bad guy(s) is/are and that the "good guys with guns" would end up killing one another?

Myth: Good guys with guns stop and/or deter mass shootings. In a country with more guns, "good guys with guns," and mass shootings, there should be more more mass shootings stopped by "good guys with guns." Instead, even in places populated by "good guys with guns," there are mass shootings.

These are facts from observations that cause you to keep repeating yourself:
"But, gun-free zones have mass shootings too!"
"The examples of mass shootings not in gun-free zones are special because the person doing it took that into account and did X."

The special pleading and perpetuation of myth/fantasy is too religious for my taste.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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