Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-10-2016, 02:27 PM
Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
It finally happened. I was working in my wood shop yesterday around 11 AM when I heard the dogs going crazy so I went to investigate. A car was pulling down our long driveway that I didn't recognize. As I approached the car I saw that there were four women in the car. Two got out holding satchels and an Ipad.

Ah, Jehovah's witnesses. I's been a while since they came around. I've actually been waiting for their next visit. I want to see how they would deal with Objectivism, so I approached them with a genuine smile. The following is our fairly short exchange.

There was an older, nicely dressed woman with a satchel and a much younger, very attractive woman with a clipboard and an ipad. The older woman came forward and the younger stayed back about a pace, punching on her pad. The other two stayed in the car.

Me: Hello ladies, how are you doing today.

JW's: Hello we're good, how are you?

Me, smiling: Just fine, working in my shop. What can I do for you?

JW's: We wanted to invite you to our worship service at the Kingdom hall tomorrow.

Me: OH, thank you ladies, but I'm atheist. I don't believe in any gods nor do I believe in anything supernatural.

JW, with concerned looks: Well if you don't believe, that will have dire consequences.

Me: It won't.

Older JW: So you don't believe in Sin? You don't think there is right and wrong?

Me: I do think there is sin but I define it not in terms of the dictates of a supernatural being's commandments but in terms of an objective standard, namely man's life as a rational being. One of the most evil things according to my world view is irrationality. It's immoral to take anything on faith. That means to accept anything without evidence or in the absence of sound reasoning or even in the face of contradicting evidence. According to my philosophy that is very, very immoral (I looked them both straight in the eye as I said this). In fact I think its the most basic and evil of all sins because it leads to all the others. Theism is irrational so I don't accept it. I choose to be rational.

Older JW: Well aren't you worried about after you die?

Me: No.

JW: But what do you think happens when you die?

Me: I have no beliefs regarding an afterlife. I have no opinions about it. There's no evidence for such a thing. When we die, biological activity stops including consciousness according to the evidence. It would be pointless to speculate beyond that.

Older JW: Well what about when you look at the sky and the trees (she pointed to a large Cottonwood in my yard) and nature? Where did it all come from?

Me: If we are talking about everything, then your question commits the fallacy of the stolen concept. If we are talking about everything then there's no where for the everything to come from, right?

Younger JW: Well if there is no god, where did the creation come from.

Me: That question is fallaciously complex. It assumes that it was created which has not been proven.

Younger JW, seeming to be getting angry: Well where did that tree come from?

Me: It came from existence by a causal process.

Younger JW: Where did life come from then?

Me: It came from existence by a causal process.

Younger JW: What about man, where did he come from?

Me: From existence

Younger JW: When you look at that camper (In my driveway) don't you recognize that it is designed?

Me: Yes I do. It is man made. You are offering me a package deal here. You are lumping the man-made with the metaphysically given. They are not in the same category.

Young JW, frustrated: Well that tree had to have a designer too.

Me: No it didn't. It no more needed to have a designer than an icicle or a snow flake does. It is the product of causality, of entities acting and interacting according to their natures.

The older JW stepped in now, reaching into her satchel, and pulling out a pamphlet. She pointed to a page listing historians who claim that Jesus existed.

Me: That's fine. I don't dispute that there was a person called Jesus who was an influential preacher and got crucified. That's all those historians mention. And some of those are suspected of being fraudulent. There really could have been a real person that all this is based on, but he was not a god or supernatural at all.

It really doesn't matter because my rejection of theism is based on something much more fundamental than all that. I reject theism because it violate the primacy of existence principle. It does this by affirming the primacy of consciousness. Since it does this, it can not be true.

At this point there was an awkward pause and silence. They looked at me with blank faces.

Me: Ladies, I think I should tell you that you really have no chance here. You won't convince me. I know too much. I've heard all of the arguments and I can refute all of them. I've put a lot of thought into these issues and I've studied and I've examined all the evidence and validated my conclusions with logic. You will not get me to accept metaphysical subjecivism. It's just not going to happen. I know that theism is false and I have an ironclad argument to prove it.

At this point they looked dejected.

Older JW: Well you have your right to your opinion.

Me: It's not opinion. It's logic.

Older JW: Well thank you for listening to us.

Me: You are welcome.

They got in their car and drove away. I'm betting they'll be back again though. I hope they bring their A-team next time.

I turned to go in the house and my wife and two teenage kids were huddled around the window of the front door, peeking out. I had to laugh.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 10 users Like true scotsman's post
16-10-2016, 02:39 PM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
You have far more fun than I. Even my dad had more fun, answering the door shirtless, with a nice round belly and proclaiming to be Buddhist.
We put up a gate years ago, for not all the visitors are as harmless as the proselytizers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes skyking's post
16-10-2016, 02:46 PM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
(16-10-2016 02:39 PM)skyking Wrote:  You have far more fun than I. Even my dad had more fun, answering the door shirtless, with a nice round belly and proclaiming to be Buddhist.
We put up a gate years ago, for not all the visitors are as harmless as the proselytizers.

We very rarely get them. We live way out in the country. It was hilarious because my three dogs were sniffing them and trying to put their noses under their skirts. There I was trying not to laugh and trying to get the dogs off of them.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes true scotsman's post
16-10-2016, 02:48 PM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
(16-10-2016 02:39 PM)skyking Wrote:  You have far more fun than I. Even my dad had more fun, answering the door shirtless, with a nice round belly and proclaiming to be Buddhist.
We put up a gate years ago, for not all the visitors are as harmless as the proselytizers.


Lol. The first time I read that I thought it said "proclaiming to be Buddha. That would be funny.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like true scotsman's post
16-10-2016, 03:13 PM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
You did so much better than I ever could. I get so angry when they come to the door I can't form sentences. All I can think of to do is slam the door in their faces. Gee, I wish I could collect myself together and say a thing or two. Grrrr.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-10-2016, 03:23 PM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
(16-10-2016 03:13 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  You did so much better than I ever could. I get so angry when they come to the door I can't form sentences. All I can think of to do is slam the door in their faces. Gee, I wish I could collect myself together and say a thing or two. Grrrr.

I used to be the same way. This time though I had an interest in talking to them. They were very nice ladies and so I was as polite as I could be. I feel sorry for them, having to go door to door. I realized talking with them that they were'nt very knowledgable. I wish I Had asked the hot one what she was tapping at. I'm guessing it was some type of script. I don't think my answers were working with their script very well. They didn't have much fight in them. In my younger days I argued with them but really didn't know much then. They came back a few days later with two men in tow. I hope they do the same this time. It was like debating a sack of wet leaves.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-10-2016, 04:39 PM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
(16-10-2016 02:48 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(16-10-2016 02:39 PM)skyking Wrote:  You have far more fun than I. Even my dad had more fun, answering the door shirtless, with a nice round belly and proclaiming to be Buddhist.
We put up a gate years ago, for not all the visitors are as harmless as the proselytizers.


Lol. The first time I read that I thought it said "proclaiming to be Buddha. That would be funny.
Freud works in mysterious ways. Praise unto him, and praise unto The Masters and The Johnson.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-10-2016, 10:17 AM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
(16-10-2016 02:27 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  ............
They got in their car and drove away. I'm betting they'll be back again though. I hope they bring their A-team next time.

I turned to go in the house and my wife and two teenage kids were huddled around the window of the front door, peeking out. I had to laugh.

Where their specialty "Jehovah's Witnesses-es" came in? Or did you simply guessed? Guessed without any evidence??? Isn't it the hypocrisy, dear "evidence-lover"?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-10-2016, 10:29 AM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
Quote:It really doesn't matter because my rejection of theism is based on something much more fundamental than all that. I reject theism because it violate the primacy of existence principle. It does this by affirming the primacy of consciousness. Since it does this, it can not be true.
Sorry, could you explain this in layman's terms for me?

If we came from dust, then why is there still dust?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-10-2016, 10:44 AM
RE: Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Objectivism
I'm polite, but I don't pull any punches when people make the mistake of engaging me in the right/wrong good/evil conversation. I like to think my fucked up responses are talked about on occasion between JWs trading stories of their experiences.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: