Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
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18-05-2014, 04:00 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 02:34 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The evidence I speak of is something that comes after one has placed faith in Christ.

The presence of Christ in the heart of the redeemed is the empirical evidence I speak of and this presence is manifested through the life, actions, words, and thoughts of the redeemed.

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means. No

"In science, empirical evidence is required for a hypothesis to gain acceptance in the scientific community. Normally, this validation is achieved by the scientific method of hypothesis commitment, experimental design, peer review, adversarial review, reproduction of results, conference presentation and journal publication. This requires rigorous communication of hypothesis (usually expressed in mathematics), experimental constraints and controls (expressed necessarily in terms of standard experimental apparatus), and a common understanding of measurement."

So, how do you propose we use the scientific method to finally bring to light this empirical data of "The presence of Christ in the heart of the redeemed"?

I suppose we must first test for this "Christ" you speak of. Then, if found, we have to test for it's presence in your heart (this could get messy). Finally we have to test for this "redeemed" state you espouse.

I'll let you design the experiment, run it a few times to make sure you're getting repeatable results. Afterwards I'll run it using your design to see if I get the same results then we can compare notes OK?

Go.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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18-05-2014, 04:05 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 04:00 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 02:34 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The evidence I speak of is something that comes after one has placed faith in Christ.

The presence of Christ in the heart of the redeemed is the empirical evidence I speak of and this presence is manifested through the life, actions, words, and thoughts of the redeemed.

I don't think that phrase means what you think it means. No

"In science, empirical evidence is required for a hypothesis to gain acceptance in the scientific community. Normally, this validation is achieved by the scientific method of hypothesis commitment, experimental design, peer review, adversarial review, reproduction of results, conference presentation and journal publication. This requires rigorous communication of hypothesis (usually expressed in mathematics), experimental constraints and controls (expressed necessarily in terms of standard experimental apparatus), and a common understanding of measurement."

So, how do you propose we use the scientific method to finally bring to light this empirical data of "The presence of Christ in the heart of the redeemed"?

I suppose we must first test for this "Christ" you speak of. Then, if found, we have to test for it's presence in your heart (this could get messy). Finally we have to test for this "redeemed" state you espouse.

I'll let you design the experiment, run it a few times to make sure you're getting repeatable results. Afterwards I'll run it using your design to see if I get the same results then we can compare notes OK?

Go.

If you would like to know Jesus Christ personally, then repent of your sins and place your faith and trust in Him and ask Him to forgive you and cleanse you of all of your unrighteousness and He will.

He promised to and He cannot lie.

I am living proof.

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but sometimes convenient lies must be abandoned for inconvenient truths.
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18-05-2014, 04:07 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 03:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  Jeremy,

As a subjective experience, I don't think anyone would deny that what you describe is something you perceive as real, and is something many other people also perceive as real. However, as skeptics, we recognize a distinction between that which we believe or intuit or feel from subjective experience, and that which is supported through objective, scientific, and logical analysis. These two can be, and often are, in conflict.

I know the earth stands still and the sun circles it, because I can see it with my own eyes and feel the stability of the earth below me. I also know that isn't true and my perception is deceiving me. I know an invisible thing called wind exists and it blows because I can feel it on my skin and see it move the trees. I also know that is real and is molecules of atmospheric gasses moving from areas of high pressure to low pressure.

Sometimes our perceptions deceive us, and sometimes they reveal truths. In this case, the perception does not lend itself to external verification unless god is willing to provide some inspiration that can be objectively verified and is nearly impossible for a human to know absent divine inspiration. That leaves two possibilities. 1) God doesn't exist and this comes from another source or a trick of our mind or perceptions, or 2) God does exist and this is the way he reveals himself to those whom he chooses to. However, neither option can be objectively proven absent further human knowledge or a change in god's approach to revealing himself. One could be skeptical and go with pure reason and reject the notion of a god that only reveals himself so elusively, or one could foster that connection, embrace the perception and experience, and embrace faith in the truth of the experience. Either way, no one can prove you wrong, at least, not at this point in time.

However, the inability to prove you wrong doesn't mean you can prove you are right either. The problem is when you get so committed to one position that you can't see the possibility of the other. There is nothing wrong with believing you are correct and also acknowledging that you can't prove it, and indeed, you may not be able to tell the difference between real and false perception. "I believe I'm right, but I could be wrong," is not a statement of weakness and lack of faith, but is simply an honest and logical evaluation of a subjective experience that resists independent verification.

You do not need proof. You need to repent of your sins. That is a choice you will have to make.
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18-05-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 03:23 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 03:15 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  It would not be like God to make the most essential necessity of man to be available only to those who attended college or were intellectuals.Drinking Beverage

Why then is the shit so complicated? Basic questions like "why the fuck doesn't X (e.g. global flood) in the Bible match Y that I see here on Earth (e.g. no evidence of global flood)" require long convoluted answers from yes men like yourself. If it's a manual for every man, why do you have to trust some other douche who attended college or is an intellectual to explain it to you?

It does not match because you are finding what you are looking for.
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18-05-2014, 04:09 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 03:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Oh, man, you mean subjective personal experience magically becomes empirical just because some idiot calls it empirical?

Shit, I've been going about this "science" lark completely wrong.

I'm sure my thesis committee will absolutely embrace my new subjective personal experience based research method.
If you would like to know Jesus Christ personally, then repent of your sins and place your faith and trust in Him and ask Him to forgive you and cleanse you of all of your unrighteousness and He will.

He promised to and He cannot lie.

I am living proof.

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but sometimes convenient lies must be abandoned for inconvenient truths.
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18-05-2014, 04:10 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 04:07 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 03:58 PM)djhall Wrote:  Jeremy,

As a subjective experience, I don't think anyone would deny that what you describe is something you perceive as real, and is something many other people also perceive as real. However, as skeptics, we recognize a distinction between that which we believe or intuit or feel from subjective experience, and that which is supported through objective, scientific, and logical analysis. These two can be, and often are, in conflict.

I know the earth stands still and the sun circles it, because I can see it with my own eyes and feel the stability of the earth below me. I also know that isn't true and my perception is deceiving me. I know an invisible thing called wind exists and it blows because I can feel it on my skin and see it move the trees. I also know that is real and is molecules of atmospheric gasses moving from areas of high pressure to low pressure.

Sometimes our perceptions deceive us, and sometimes they reveal truths. In this case, the perception does not lend itself to external verification unless god is willing to provide some inspiration that can be objectively verified and is nearly impossible for a human to know absent divine inspiration. That leaves two possibilities. 1) God doesn't exist and this comes from another source or a trick of our mind or perceptions, or 2) God does exist and this is the way he reveals himself to those whom he chooses to. However, neither option can be objectively proven absent further human knowledge or a change in god's approach to revealing himself. One could be skeptical and go with pure reason and reject the notion of a god that only reveals himself so elusively, or one could foster that connection, embrace the perception and experience, and embrace faith in the truth of the experience. Either way, no one can prove you wrong, at least, not at this point in time.

However, the inability to prove you wrong doesn't mean you can prove you are right either. The problem is when you get so committed to one position that you can't see the possibility of the other. There is nothing wrong with believing you are correct and also acknowledging that you can't prove it, and indeed, you may not be able to tell the difference between real and false perception. "I believe I'm right, but I could be wrong," is not a statement of weakness and lack of faith, but is simply an honest and logical evaluation of a subjective experience that resists independent verification.

You do not need proof. You need to repent of your sins. That is a choice you will have to make.

And we are back to, "I know I'm right because I know I'm not wrong." Facepalm

Jesus is my Stalker: He has graced me with his unconditional love, but if I reject it and refuse to love him in return, he will make my life Hell.
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18-05-2014, 04:10 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 03:53 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 03:15 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Faith can be exercised by anyone for everyone has the capacity to exercise it. That is why salvation is by grace through faith.
What if I randomly choose (or choose because my parents or culture taught me to choose) to have faith in the Indian gods, that all unexplained things happen because in an unobserved way these gods magically make things happen.
Then until such a point that science fills a knowledge gap, I then have "proof" that my gods did it.

(18-05-2014 03:15 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  It would not be like God to make the most essential necessity of man to be available only to those who attended college or were intellectuals.Drinking Beverage
In your belief system, is your god playing a game of Russian roulette, where we spin a wheel, it has a different god in each segment, or no god in one of the segments. So there are about 10,000 options. We spin the wheel and whatever it lands on then that is what we go with. We put faith into the answer and try to convince others to join our group. Then when death comes, your god punishes those that spun on one of the 9,999 wrong options but rewards those that spun on the one right option.

Is your god a gambler, who rewards good blind luck and punishes bad blind luck?

If you would like to know Jesus Christ personally, then repent of your sins and place your faith and trust in Him and ask Him to forgive you and cleanse you of all of your unrighteousness and He will.

He promised to and He cannot lie.

I am living proof.

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but sometimes convenient lies must be abandoned for inconvenient truths.
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18-05-2014, 04:12 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 04:09 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 03:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Oh, man, you mean subjective personal experience magically becomes empirical just because some idiot calls it empirical?

Shit, I've been going about this "science" lark completely wrong.

I'm sure my thesis committee will absolutely embrace my new subjective personal experience based research method.
If you would like to know Jesus Christ personally, then repent of your sins and place your faith and trust in Him and ask Him to forgive you and cleanse you of all of your unrighteousness and He will.

He promised to and He cannot lie.

I am living proof.

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but sometimes convenient lies must be abandoned for inconvenient truths.

Funnily enough, that's that believers in all religions say. As per the OP. Which you have in no way addressed.

Subjective personal experience is not compelling. But it is, at the very least, refreshing to see you abandon any futile pretense to anything more than subjective personal experience.

I've tried praying, thanks. Nothing happened. Go figure.

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18-05-2014, 04:12 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2014 04:18 PM by Mathilda.)
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 02:34 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  The presence of Christ in the heart of the redeemed is the empirical evidence I speak of and this presence is manifested through the life, actions, words, and thoughts of the redeemed.

Well if we're talking about empirical evidence then we're talking about observation, experimentation and science. What you are describing is a parasite. We first need to determine how this parasite infects the host and subsequently takes control. Does it only infect humans? Can it infect other animals as well? This requires more empirical evidence in the form of animal testing. Also the location of the parasite. If the presence of it is in the heart then it must grow nerve cells to the spinal column up through the blood brain barrier and into the brain. We must also determine how it spreads. It requires an energy supply so the initial hypothesis must be that it is usurping the host's own cells and using them for its own purpose.

This is indeed disturbing. Do you have any sources for this empirical evidence?
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18-05-2014, 04:13 PM
RE: Jeremy E. Walker provides empirical evidence for the Christian God over other...
(18-05-2014 04:09 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 03:57 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Oh, man, you mean subjective personal experience magically becomes empirical just because some idiot calls it empirical?

Shit, I've been going about this "science" lark completely wrong.

I'm sure my thesis committee will absolutely embrace my new subjective personal experience based research method.
If you would like to know Jesus Christ personally, then repent of your sins and place your faith and trust in Him and ask Him to forgive you and cleanse you of all of your unrighteousness and He will.

He promised to and He cannot lie.

I am living proof.

This may not be the answer you are looking for, but sometimes convenient lies must be abandoned for inconvenient truths.

Truths? You don't know that. Really, you don't.

I'm done. You've proven that you are incapable of critical thought.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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