Jesus?
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08-04-2011, 12:55 PM
RE: Jesus?
(08-04-2011 12:26 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  
(08-04-2011 11:25 AM)Norseman Wrote:  Damn.. you got me.
Oh, no, wait! you didn't! Because I'm changing it to "might in some cases be considered to be, itself, immoral". Checkmate! Tongue

Lol, well you took your finger off the piece, but I'll allow it. ;P Logically, however, if there's no absolute morality, then the only thing there is is rules and those who make them. Nothing is right, nothing is wrong.

Morality is a product of social organisms. The golden rule "treat others as you want to be treated" essentially outlines where morals come from, in my opinion. Do not kill or harm others unless defending oneself. Do not steal because you do not want to have your resources taken away. Just like other animals humans do not always follow the basic moral principle behind the Golden Rule, for numerous reasons (competition, survival, insanity, etc). Humans are a part of nature but we have employed a judicial system for imposing laws of the state. These laws all ultimately, in my opinion, originate from our basic natural moral code of the Golden Rule. Morals help keep everyone on a level playing field which would, in theory, improve everyone's standard of living and chance of survival.

Evolve

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08-04-2011, 12:57 PM
RE: Jesus?
That's when God came in with an eye for an eye. He was saying that the most we'd be permitted to do it return an even amount, not that an even amount was correct. He also says in Deuteronomy that "Vengeance is Mine". Sorry about the skip. Mobile site has a character limit.
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08-04-2011, 01:12 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2011 02:36 PM by Ghost.)
RE: Jesus?
Heym BlackEyedGhost.

Quote:Logically, however, if there's no absolute morality, then the only thing there is is rules and those who make them. Nothing is right, nothing is wrong.

No absolute morality. No right or wrong. Aint it cool Cool

I think I'd like to hear you elaborate a little on what is meant by rules and those that make them. I'm getting an authoritarian vibe from that. Is my radar off?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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08-04-2011, 01:51 PM
RE: Jesus?
(08-04-2011 12:57 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  That's when God came in with an eye for an eye. He was saying that the most we'd be permitted to do it return an even amount, not that an even amount was correct. He also says in Deuteronomy that "Vengeance is Mine". Sorry about the skip. Mobile site has a character limit.

There is no right or wrong. Morality is one large grey area. You balance your decisions on what is most right and least wrong for you. Even helping others is balanced by the amount of benefit you gain or could potentially gain from it. A good example is blood-sharing among vampire bats. These bats live in broods that are heterogeneously mixed, i.e. more than one family. If an individual is unsuccessful during a hunt one of the members of the brood will regurgitate a blood meal for it. There is a direct benefit to the bat who was unsuccessful and indirect benefit for the giver. This indirect benefit is reciprocation of a meal after an unsuccessful hunt. The bible/jesus refer to morals as they pertain to humans but we see similar acts of kindness in other animals as well.

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08-04-2011, 02:33 PM
RE: Jesus?
(08-04-2011 12:26 PM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  One Christian and a bunch of Atheists makes it difficult to keep up.
LOL...
I can imagine that. It ll make your person stronger I guess Smile (bro-tip: Stick to 1 tread at the time Wink)

I follow your reasoning and it sounds logical to me.
However.
Jesus might not have sinned to his own theistic rules, he DID sinned to the Jewish theistic rules that where generally accepted by society in those days. Now I understand that you can dismiss these since you see these rules inferior to the rule of God, but you'll have to admit that to the Jews in those days these where all to real. Jesus choose not to apply these rules but instead used his own set based on a more humane character, and that's something I like.

About the italic text above:
I know you are going to say: "He did not made those rules up! It was the law of God!" If you want to define it that way, Fine with me! But to me as an Atheist he might as well made those up. Perhaps he was a brilliant philosopher or moralist. Perhaps brilliant philosophers and moralists made the figure of Jesus up as some sort of plot device to cling their ideas to. But that is not the topic of this tread.

Observer

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Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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08-04-2011, 03:02 PM
 
RE: Jesus?
[Image: m244.jpg]
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08-04-2011, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2011 03:41 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: Jesus?
@TheBeardedDude So in the sense of the Golden Rule, you say there is absolute morality?
(08-04-2011 01:12 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Heym BlackEyedGhost.

No absolute morality. No right or wrong. Aint it cool Cool

I think I'd like to hear you elaborate a little on what is meant by rules and those that make them. I'm getting an authoritarian vibe from that. Is my radar off?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Not far off at all. There's also the social aspect with unwritten rules and so forth, but when you get down to it, it becomes survival of the fittest and whoever is the smartest or the strongest is the ruler.
@TheBeardedDude So no absolute right and wrong, but there is absolute morality? I'm confused of what you believe.
@The_observer Any time that Jesus was accused of breaking Jewish law, He proved to the ,jews that the very laws they claim to follow speak against them. Whether or not He made up the rules He followed, no Jew could say He disobeyed the Jewish law at its most adamant level. All the Jewish customs that they added to the law were based in the law. The law that Jesus followed despite the Jewish customs that had clouded it from view. So, when Jews confronted Him, He confronted them at an even deeper level. If anything, He was upholding the Jewish law more than any other Jew.
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08-04-2011, 03:41 PM
RE: Jesus?
(07-04-2011 12:57 AM)BlackEyedGhost Wrote:  I'm interested what specific advice you may be referring to in each instance, but particularly the daft advice.

You can read through Matt Dillahunty's dissection of the sermon on the mount on iron chariots wiki.
Jesus talks about how salt can lose its flavour (as a metaphor, just not a very good one), and thats the one I'm always reminded of.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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08-04-2011, 03:43 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2011 03:47 PM by BlackEyedGhost.)
RE: Jesus?
(08-04-2011 03:02 PM)GassyKitten Wrote:  [Image: m244.jpg]

Lol. I suppose that it does still answer what I asked.
@daemonowner Jesus is talking about when salt is contaminated by other things. You could call it being dilluted. We're the containers and if we don't fill ourselves with salt (God's word), then other things will fill us and whaatever salt we had will be diluted and will lose any usefulness it had. Anyways, I'll look into that and maybe get back to you with more.
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08-04-2011, 06:24 PM
RE: Jesus?
Hey, BlackEyedGhost.

Quote:Not far off at all. There's also the social aspect with unwritten rules and so forth, but when you get down to it, it becomes survival of the fittest and whoever is the smartest or the strongest is the ruler.

Ok. That's about what I thought. I disagree, but thanks for clarifying. No need to cloud a Jesus thread with a subjectivism debate Cool

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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