Jesus Anointed by Mary (satire)
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04-01-2017, 04:12 PM
RE: Jesus Anointed by Mary (satire)
(11-12-2016 08:47 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  There is only one person named "Mary" that is mentioned by Josephus and it just so happens that she was found after having roasted her son in the famine caused by the siege of Jerusalem. The guards wanted to take her food from her, but couldn't. Then suddenly the holy Roman army appears:

The Shepherds and Angels 1:
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Shepherds and Angels 2: The Heavenly Army Appears
[Image: od60ds6g8s1y.png]

Jesus Anointed by Mary: Mary hath Chosen that Good Part
[Image: 4l32q3pw8y2y.png]


“The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you {you will starve;}. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life {will be remembered forever;}; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever {have their story told forever and reenacted in churches around the world;}.”
– John 6:52-58

“…nor by way of irony, as thou wilt say, (for he was entirely a stranger to such an evil disposition of mind,) but he wrote this by way of attestation to what was true…”
– The Life Of Flavius Josephus, 1:65

I think you are on the money with this one. This is what I wrote about it

"Josephus writes of a starving Jewish woman, named Mary, trapped inside Jerusalem during the war, who, in desperation eats her own child:

“There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezob, which signifies the house of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time... What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had been also carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose... but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against her- self, or out of commiseration of her case, would take away her life; and if she found any food, she perceived her labors were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself; ... She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, “O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews.” As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious came in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son. Hereupon they were seized with a horror and amazement of mind, and stood astonished at the sight, when she said to them, “This is mine own son, and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother; but if you be so scrupulous, and do abominate this my sacrifice, as I have eaten the one half, let the rest be reserved for me also.” After which those men went out trembling, being never so much frightened at any thing as they were at this, and with some difficulty they left the rest of that meat to the mother. (Josephus, Wars of the Jews, 6, 3, 201-212.)

Atwill thinks this is a lampoon of Christ, whose mother was Mary, who was (supposedly) killed by his own people, and whose body is literally (according to some) eaten by Christians. Josephus, who Atwill thinks was privy to the creation of the Gospels, was making a grim joke for the Flavians’ amusement by saying that Christ was a manufactured
“by-word to the world” and a myth intended to
“complete” the
“calamities of us Jews.” This passage fits with the idea Christianity was created to promote anti-Semitism. Military suppression of the Jews was the first step, suppressing their religious beliefs by substituting fabricated new ones helped complete their calamities. I find this concept convincing, as it is an obvious explanation for the above phrasing."
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05-01-2017, 02:33 AM
RE: Jesus Anointed by Mary (satire)
(04-01-2017 04:12 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Josephus, who Atwill thinks was privy to the creation of the Gospels, was making a grim joke for the Flavians’ amusement

What on earth makes you think that Josephus was capable of satire or irony or joking?

“…There have been indeed some bad men, who have attempted to calumniate my history, and took it to be a kind of scholastic performance for the exercise of young men. A strange sort of accusation and calumny this!…”
– Flavius Josephus Against Apion, Book I, 1:10

“…He adds another Grecian fable, in order to reproach us…”
– Flavius Josephus Against Apion, Book II :8

“However, I may justly blame the learned men among the Greeks, who… which moderns, although they may be superior to the old writers in eloquence, yet are they inferior to them in the execution of what they intended to do… where it must be reproachful to write lies, when they must be known by the readers to be such…”
– Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Preface, 5

"Writing lies, when they must be known by the readers to be such" is the definition of satire and irony:

-"the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect."
-"a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character."

Josephus hated satire and irony and "Grecian fables". We have no indication anywhere that he was capable of that, but we have every indication that people were at his time and before already mocking the Jews generally in the form of "Grecian fables" and mocking Josephus specifically in "scholastic performances for the exercise of young men". So someone mocking his description of Mary is far more likely than him writing a joke about early Christians when he never really talks about them at all. What can make you think that there were any "Christians" or stories of Mary's baby being eaten before the war?
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05-01-2017, 03:15 AM
RE: Jesus Anointed by Mary (satire)
(04-01-2017 04:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Surely its more likely that the Romans didn't like the religion which drove the "Jews" of the Levant and they wanted to promote a religion which pacified the region, considering the brutality and length of the wars.

No, again, that is not more likely, that is a fact of history. That is just what happened. The Romans spread Christianity, but much later than the first Flavians, not until Constantine did they really try to spread Christianity. Also true, the Romans didn't like Judaism, but it was not really much of a threat shortly after the war. Their whole nation had just been leveled. In fact I am pretty sure it was Vespasian that set up some institution to reestablish Judaism after he destroyed their nation, and made many decrees to protect remaining Jewish communities around the empire. Doesn't sound like the kind of guy who is desperately trying to eliminate Judaism and replace it with something else. That came much later when Judaism was rebounding.

(04-01-2017 04:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  That would suggest the NT would be satirical, if you can even call it that, of the religion of the region, not of another book, but, obviously, the book, War with the Jews, would provide a historical reference upon which the satire is based. He's not making fun of Josephus' book, because it may be that Josephus is quite accurate in depiction the Jews the way he did. He's satirising the religion and culture described in the book.[/i]

I think this is a very good point.

Yes, I agree. There are some passages where the Gospels are mocking the Jewish religion as described by Josephus in Wars of the Jews and Antiquities of the Jews. I have almost 500 parallels and some of them mock Josephus' description and thoughts on Judaism, others mock his description of Vespasian or the Romans, other passages mock Josephus himself or his hatred of Greek writers. In fact, starting in about book II, especially after Josephus appears on the scene, the Gospels and book of Revelation mock almost every passage of the Wars of the Jews.
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05-01-2017, 12:01 PM
RE: Jesus Anointed by Mary (satire)
(04-01-2017 04:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(12-12-2016 08:24 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  Ok, so here is what I get so far:

1. You don't agree with the statistical analysis of Atwill based on Titus' travels through Judea. I find this to be his most significant point

I think this is a very good point.

I said this before, but I'll say it again, just to be clear. I think Atwill did a very good job on his analysis of the parallel, including chronology and a look at probability. The parallels he showed are for me mostly proven and the chronology makes textual dependence a fact. What Atwill did badly is conclude that Josephus or Titus then must have written the gospels or commissioned them because that is entirely unsupported by his work on the parallels. He demonstrated textual dependence, not authorship or motive, that part he just pulled out of his hat. Somebodies wrote the Gospels largely based on Josephus.

I use the plural there because each gospel has it's own style and language. Scholarship has concluded that Luke and Acts were probably written by the same person but the other Gospels were not. They were probably written over a long time after Titus and Vespasian were already dead and maybe a lot of editing and writing even long after Josephus was dead. These Gospels cannot be explained by a single organized government effort under Vespasian or Titus and if it had been under Domitian we would expect to have had a bigger Roman force of introducing it to the people while he was still alive. Where was that, where was that big push to introduce Christianity under the three Flavians?
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05-01-2017, 04:04 PM
RE: Jesus Anointed by Mary (satire)
(05-01-2017 02:33 AM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 04:12 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Josephus, who Atwill thinks was privy to the creation of the Gospels, was making a grim joke for the Flavians’ amusement

What on earth makes you think that Josephus was capable of satire or irony or joking?

“…There have been indeed some bad men, who have attempted to calumniate my history, and took it to be a kind of scholastic performance for the exercise of young men. A strange sort of accusation and calumny this!…”
– Flavius Josephus Against Apion, Book I, 1:10

“…He adds another Grecian fable, in order to reproach us…”
– Flavius Josephus Against Apion, Book II :8

“However, I may justly blame the learned men among the Greeks, who… which moderns, although they may be superior to the old writers in eloquence, yet are they inferior to them in the execution of what they intended to do… where it must be reproachful to write lies, when they must be known by the readers to be such…”
– Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Preface, 5

"Writing lies, when they must be known by the readers to be such" is the definition of satire and irony:

-"the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect."
-"a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character's words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character."

Josephus hated satire and irony and "Grecian fables". We have no indication anywhere that he was capable of that, but we have every indication that people were at his time and before already mocking the Jews generally in the form of "Grecian fables" and mocking Josephus specifically in "scholastic performances for the exercise of young men". So someone mocking his description of Mary is far more likely than him writing a joke about early Christians when he never really talks about them at all. What can make you think that there were any "Christians" or stories of Mary's baby being eaten before the war?

Hi.

None of the 3 quotes you give from Josephus specifically shout out

"I am incapable of / or I hate, irony and satire." Rather, Josephus is just saying that these other writers are dishonest.

By the way, I agree that we don't know whether Josephus was privy to the gospel(s), and that Atwill is just assuming this.

Having said that, however, how would you explain the following phrases (in italics) in the "Mary eats her baby" quote from Josephus?

"Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews.”

It seems probable he is talking about the creation of a new religion in which Jeebus becomes a "by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews.”
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05-01-2017, 04:08 PM
RE: Jesus Anointed by Mary (satire)
(05-01-2017 12:01 PM)fhqwhgads Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 04:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I think this is a very good point.

I said this before, but I'll say it again, just to be clear. I think Atwill did a very good job on his analysis of the parallel, including chronology and a look at probability. The parallels he showed are for me mostly proven and the chronology makes textual dependence a fact. What Atwill did badly is conclude that Josephus or Titus then must have written the gospels or commissioned them because that is entirely unsupported by his work on the parallels. He demonstrated textual dependence, not authorship or motive, that part he just pulled out of his hat. Somebodies wrote the Gospels largely based on Josephus.

I use the plural there because each gospel has it's own style and language. Scholarship has concluded that Luke and Acts were probably written by the same person but the other Gospels were not. They were probably written over a long time after Titus and Vespasian were already dead and maybe a lot of editing and writing even long after Josephus was dead. These Gospels cannot be explained by a single organized government effort under Vespasian or Titus and if it had been under Domitian we would expect to have had a bigger Roman force of introducing it to the people while he was still alive. Where was that, where was that big push to introduce Christianity under the three Flavians?

Somebodies wrote the Gospels largely based on Josephus.

This is where you and I agree, and it is the most important point. It means the gospels, the Jeebus stories, are manufactured nonsense.
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05-01-2017, 05:52 PM
RE: Jesus Anointed by Mary (satire)
(05-01-2017 04:08 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Somebodies wrote the Gospels largely based on Josephus.

This is where you and I agree, and it is the most important point. It means the gospels, the Jeebus stories, are manufactured nonsense.
The gospels are manufactured nonsense on the face of it. The fantastical stories, the countless inter-gospel inconsistencies, the anonymous authors, the lack of secular corroboration of any of it. And so much more. We aren't so desperate that we have to reach this far afield to make our point.
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