Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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25-09-2015, 04:37 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
That's some pretty off statements. He doesn't require the death penalty. And the crimes aren't without victim. It is a way of life that leads to peace if everyone would stop being greedy and divided. It's a way of being that leads to not wanting which leads to no greed which leads to no wrong and peace and tranquility, and an afterlife.
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25-09-2015, 07:31 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-09-2015 08:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(24-09-2015 02:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Maybe, Q, your memory needs a little refreshing...

Paul the Salesman

It can be argued that Paul was a salesman with an ambitious agenda. Paul hoped to sell his interpretation of Judaism to the Roman world. He had a plan to undermine those dangerous messianic Nazarene beliefs that roused rebellion against Roman rule.

Paul wrote to various groups scattered throughout the Empire, and pleaded they believe only his theology. Judging by the content of his letters, Paul was so obsessed with snaring converts that little else in his life mattered. In Romans 15:16, he wrote that Gentiles were an offering he would bring to God.

“...that I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.”

Most of the people Paul wrote to were Gentiles (pagans) associated with Jewish synagogues, (“God-fearing Gentiles”) although he wrote to some Jews in the Diaspora too. From Paul’s perspective, his patrons were in desperate need of direction and an authoritative, charismatic leader to look up to. He considered himself just the man. Paul thought he knew how to win the hearts, minds, and souls of people, as he probably imagined himself as one of the few God fearers (i.e. Jews) who understood Gentile cultures.

“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:20-23, KJV)

Paul’s theology probably had a long and carefully thought out gestation. Paul knew that to appeal to his customers he needed a product very different to traditional Judaism. Traditional Judaism required obedience to cumbersome dictates, and was too anti-Roman. The Jews believed men had to be circumcised, a painful and embarrass- ing procedure, not easy to sell to an adult man. The Jews worshipped Yahweh, who is portrayed in Jewish Scripture as a thunderous and violent pro-Jewish anti-Gentile God, and Jews would bow to no one but Him. The Jews had to eat kosher food, could marry only Jewish women, and were not allowed to work on the Sabbath. Jews regarded Jewish heritage and history as superior to others, and all Jews were expected to take part in the fasts and feasts celebrating the ancient epic of Israel. Many Jews thought they were one day going to be the masters of the world, and they had chips on their shoulders that right now it was Rome, not they, who were in charge. Jewish Messianic dreams were a threat to Roman rule. Paul knew that the vast majority of Gentiles, including those in the Roman government, found all this inconvenient, irksome, subversive and out of touch with reality, so he labeled these Jewish rules and beliefs as a type of “slavery.” Paul had to jettison the old Jewish rules, so he did, by reinventing Judaism so that it was more to the Gentile world’s liking.

According to Paul, there was now no need for circumcision or to stop work on the Sabbath. The dietary kosher rules were out; bacon was on the breakfast menu, with shellfish salad for lunch. Paul made the extraordinary claim that to obey the Roman government was to obey God. Paul downplayed the importance of the Jewish temple, and replaced the Jews’ hope for a political Messiah of their own with Christ, the spiritual savior of all mankind. The “kingdom of God,” according to Paul, became a place in heaven, not in Israel. Paul declared Yahweh was such a decent deity he had sent his own precious son, the Christ, to earth. Paul alleged Gentiles were descendants of Abraham too, and that the centuries-old Jewish Law was a “curse,” and a type of “slavery.” All that was now required was faith in Paul’s claims about Christ. Voilà! The Christ myth and Christian theology were born.

It can be argued that Paul was one of history’s first examples of an ambitious cult leader who, when the rules of the established religion were problematic or no longer convenient, simply invented new ones to suit himself.

Paul advocated the replacement of what he called the “old covenant” of the Jews with his entirely fabricated “new covenant.” It is evident that Paul was trying to reinvent Judaism and dampen down Jewish messianic dreams, and that he was bending over backwards to infiltrate the old religion with Gentiles and pro-Roman ideas. Paul had little idea that he was creating an almost entirely new faith, yet that is precisely what his writings helped to do many years later.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEsWX0YDB2Y
http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2006/10/12/its-not-the-end-of-the- world-or-is-it-pauls-apocalyptic-worldview-nt-26/ )

1. Since you are a physician and not an academic classicist, historian or Bible scholar, may I caution you to at least describe your theories as such rather than your latest version of "Eureka! All debates are settled! Here is how Paul created Christianity!" even as you ignore the other 8 NT writers? Thanks.

2. Since you are theorizing that Paul saw himself as just the leader needed in the situation, can you explain why he:

* limited his own income

* did work with his hands including tent making rather than allow local churches to support him financially

* raised much money for the poor

* purposed to visit Jerusalem to visit his fealty to traditional Jerusalem via the shaving of his head and vows

* gave up the comfort of marriage to speak the gospel

* spent most of his life following conversion in Roman prison--chained to walls in freezing or heated rooms, sitting in his own excrement, experiencing trials brought about by false accusations--one heck of a way to "keep the Roman conspiracy quiet" I should think!

* was beaten and mishandled by the Roman authorities until he bothered to mention his citizenship!

Mark, you have "no rules, just right" since you are an atheist on an atheists' forum, but do feel free to actually reply to at least one of my several bullet points rather than simply share more rhetoric, non-biblical and ahistorical assumptions, and venting your anger against the One Holy God.

Thanks!

"Since you are a physician and not an academic classicist, historian or Bible scholar..."

"...and venting your anger against the One Holy God."

Your ad hominems say more about you than me Big Grin
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28-09-2015, 01:50 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-09-2015 10:26 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(25-09-2015 08:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... Since you are a physician and not an academic classicist, historian or Bible scholar, may I caution you ...

Dr. Fulton is a published author in the very subject you declare him incompetent, in ADDITION to being a licensed physician, which fact AUGMENTS his credibility in any scholarly endeavor, not detracts from it.

By the way, Mr. Q., what are your bona fides?

I'm a published author/editor in apologetics and prophecy subjects. But any layman can see the difference between Mark's rhetoric and his (occasional) substantive arguments.

By the way, I hope you see the hypocrisy in statements like "he's a medical doctor, adding weight to his theological and historical scholarship" while your friends at TTA make statements like "having a physicist comment on geology and creation detracts from his scholarship". Be consistent.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-09-2015, 01:52 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-09-2015 01:50 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm a published author/editor in apologetics and prophecy

Nuff saidSadcryface2

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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28-09-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-09-2015 04:10 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(25-09-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course you could be both. Paul said he had a citizenship. Now, respond as you never have to my assertion as to how Paul was trying to get the Jews to obey Rome by making a few verses as to same while writing entire thousand-word discussions of how the Romans were utterly lost without Jesus Christ and how all other gods in their pantheon didn't exist and how Roman idols were empowered by demons and how excited he was to have seen people in Caesar's own household converted to his sect of Judaism!

"Now, respond as you never have to my assertion as to how Paul was trying to get the Jews to obey Rome by making a few verses as to same while writing entire thousand-word discussions of how the Romans were utterly lost without Jesus Christ and how all other gods in their pantheon didn't exist and how Roman idols were empowered by demons and how excited he was to have seen people in Caesar's own household converted to his sect of Judaism!"

I have absolutely no idea what the point you're trying to make here is. (I disagree with none of it... except "by making a few verses as to same..." I've presented multiple arguments as to why I think Paul was a Roman agent, yet you claim my entire argument is based "on a few verses.")

If you want to criticise my understanding of Paul, please respect me, and other readers here, enough to say exactly what you mean.

If you're serious about discussing Paul, move to the boxing ring with me. That way you will be obligated to answer (in reasonable time) and it will be less easy for you to avoid explaining yourself.

I see, now that I've made this argument an umpteenth time, you wish to address it. You are making unsupported assertions that Paul was a Roman conspirator. I say unsupported because Paul indeed wrote several verses encouraging Jewish people to follow both Jewish and Roman authorities as good citizens. However, for a "Roman conspirator", I'm again asking you why Paul wrote hundreds, even thousands of verses saying the Roman pantheon of gods didn't exist... the Roman religion was demonic... the Romans were degenerates further from God than the Jews... your theory is absurd.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-09-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-09-2015 01:52 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 01:50 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm a published author/editor in apologetics and prophecy

Nuff saidSadcryface2

Again, there is a double standard, no matter whether I've done more research than Fulton or written more books or spoken at more conferences and so on, right?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-09-2015, 02:05 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-09-2015 01:54 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(28-09-2015 01:52 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Nuff saidSadcryface2

Again, there is a double standard, no matter whether I've done more research than Fulton or written more books or spoken at more conferences and so on, right?

So sorry, I will acknowledge that you are very versed in the topic of "things I pretend to know that I do not know". Carry on there scholar!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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28-09-2015, 02:22 PM (This post was last modified: 28-09-2015 04:30 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-09-2015 01:53 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-09-2015 04:10 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Now, respond as you never have to my assertion as to how Paul was trying to get the Jews to obey Rome by making a few verses as to same while writing entire thousand-word discussions of how the Romans were utterly lost without Jesus Christ and how all other gods in their pantheon didn't exist and how Roman idols were empowered by demons and how excited he was to have seen people in Caesar's own household converted to his sect of Judaism!"

I have absolutely no idea what the point you're trying to make here is. (I disagree with none of it... except "by making a few verses as to same..." I've presented multiple arguments as to why I think Paul was a Roman agent, yet you claim my entire argument is based "on a few verses.")

If you want to criticise my understanding of Paul, please respect me, and other readers here, enough to say exactly what you mean.

If you're serious about discussing Paul, move to the boxing ring with me. That way you will be obligated to answer (in reasonable time) and it will be less easy for you to avoid explaining yourself.

I see, now that I've made this argument an umpteenth time, you wish to address it. You are making unsupported assertions that Paul was a Roman conspirator. I say unsupported because Paul indeed wrote several verses encouraging Jewish people to follow both Jewish and Roman authorities as good citizens. However, for a "Roman conspirator", I'm again asking you why Paul wrote hundreds, even thousands of verses saying the Roman pantheon of gods didn't exist... the Roman religion was demonic... the Romans were degenerates further from God than the Jews... your theory is absurd.

"I'm again asking you why Paul wrote hundreds, even thousands of verses saying the Roman pantheon of gods didn't exist... the Roman religion was demonic... the Romans were degenerates further from God than the Jews... your theory is absurd."

You obviously have very little understanding of Roman history. The Roman government was tolerant of all religions, provided people paid their taxes and otherwise obeyed Roman law. There were scores of religions freely practised and even supported by the government in the Roman empire.

I assume you mean by "the Roman religion" you are referring to the imperial cult? This was sometimes observed (ceremoniously) in practice, but not in spirit...ie it wasn't taken seriously, often even by the imperial family itself. People had 2nd , 3rd or 4th religions if they wanted.

It is, therefore, entirely reasonable to posit that Paul...a Jewish Roman citizen....would heap shit on all religions (other than his own brand of woo) and for him to be doing that as a government agent. The government didn't care who you bowed down to....as long as you were a good citizen. If your woo threatened the peace (as Judaism often did) then you denigrated it (as Paul did.)

Here endeth today's lesson.

I'm still wondering why you are too gutless to defend Paul (the creator of your religion) in the boxing ring.
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28-09-2015, 02:31 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-09-2015 01:53 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-09-2015 04:10 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Now, respond as you never have to my assertion as to how Paul was trying to get the Jews to obey Rome by making a few verses as to same while writing entire thousand-word discussions of how the Romans were utterly lost without Jesus Christ and how all other gods in their pantheon didn't exist and how Roman idols were empowered by demons and how excited he was to have seen people in Caesar's own household converted to his sect of Judaism!"

I have absolutely no idea what the point you're trying to make here is. (I disagree with none of it... except "by making a few verses as to same..." I've presented multiple arguments as to why I think Paul was a Roman agent, yet you claim my entire argument is based "on a few verses.")

If you want to criticise my understanding of Paul, please respect me, and other readers here, enough to say exactly what you mean.

If you're serious about discussing Paul, move to the boxing ring with me. That way you will be obligated to answer (in reasonable time) and it will be less easy for you to avoid explaining yourself.

I see, now that I've made this argument an umpteenth time, you wish to address it. You are making unsupported assertions that Paul was a Roman conspirator. I say unsupported because Paul indeed wrote several verses encouraging Jewish people to follow both Jewish and Roman authorities as good citizens. However, for a "Roman conspirator", I'm again asking you why Paul wrote hundreds, even thousands of verses saying the Roman pantheon of gods didn't exist... the Roman religion was demonic... the Romans were degenerates further from God than the Jews... your theory is absurd.

"I'm again asking you why Paul wrote hundreds, even thousands of verses saying the Roman pantheon of gods didn't exist... the Roman religion was demonic... the Romans were degenerates further from God than the Jews..."

What is more, you are exaggerating. Please explain yourself, and perhaps provide a few ( of the "thousands" of ) examples.
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28-09-2015, 02:41 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-09-2015 01:50 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm a published author/editor in apologetics and prophecy subjects.



have you made an appearance on Coast to Coast AM?
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