Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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21-04-2015, 12:48 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
If God is all powerful...

Why does he have to send himself or his son or whatever to die to forgive people of sin? Can't he just do that automatically? Why make a huge show of torture and suffering and death in order to atone humanity of sin? Seems like it makes Christianity a death cult.

Or is this God not in fact all powerful and has to abide by some rules either he put on himself or something more powerful binds him?

Or does he actually not exist?
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21-04-2015, 12:58 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(20-04-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Sin is clearly a powerful force if it is the factor leading unto death. Adam and Eve without sin/disobedience would still be with us. So someone has to die to atone for sin.

You know Q, I find this very confusing.
You state that if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned then humans would not know death. Humans would live on Earth forever. (never mind the logistical issues, of limited resource, food and location for houses etc)

And you claim that Jesus died as a sacrifice to wash away our sins.

But then we have the following conversation


(16-04-2015 09:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:Now, if Jesus "sacrifice" was accepted as payment for our sins and hence taken away the need for death, one has to ask, why since then do humans continue to die?

3. Great question. The answer is "because there are two deaths (separations)". All inherit Adam's mortal nature since the Fall of Eden. However, all are also judged after death to be eternally separated unless they have taken refuge in Christ. Two deaths.
All of a sudden Jesus death doesn't take us back to a place where people don't die. Now all of a sudden there is an invisible, unobservable second death that supposedly we gained from sinning (the first must have been after original sin, right) and once Jesus died then this invisible, unobservable second death no longer happens.

Is this the story?

And of course we can't verify any of this second death stuff, we just have to take your word for it.
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21-04-2015, 02:22 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
All,

I apologize for speaking in the affirmative rather than the interrogative, but I was merely trying to answer the questions posed.

What I call sin includes some very destructive, deadly behaviors. Some sin does not lead to death directly, sure. But when I see people, for example, detonating bombs at the Boston Marathon, they are snuffing innocent lives and the consequence is death.

Many of you are saying "you need take my word for it" of necessity as if you are unaware that it is just for a mass murderer, say, to die. Start there with justice, with consequence. Then you can go on to examining the scriptures more carefully. Now, I do get it. Some of you have said if someone kills your parent or child you would not require that the murderer die. God does require it as I understand it. However, everyone dies as it is. Mortality is not only a consequence of the Fall but our fall as individuals. We all sin, we all die as I understand it. Then comes judgment.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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21-04-2015, 03:31 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(21-04-2015 02:22 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I apologize for speaking in the affirmative rather than the interrogative, but I was merely trying to answer the questions posed.

What I call sin includes some very destructive, deadly behaviors. Some sin does not lead to death directly, sure. But when I see people, for example, detonating bombs at the Boston Marathon, they are snuffing innocent lives and the consequence is death.

Many of you are saying "you need take my word for it" of necessity as if you are unaware that it is just for a mass murderer, say, to die. Start there with justice, with consequence. Then you can go on to examining the scriptures more carefully. Now, I do get it. Some of you have said if someone kills your parent or child you would not require that the murderer die. God does require it as I understand it. However, everyone dies as it is. Mortality is not only a consequence of the Fall but our fall as individuals. We all sin, we all die as I understand it. Then comes judgment.

You have no evidence for any of that. It's all just woo. Mortality is a consequence of biology. Everything that lives eventually dies, and there is no evidence that this has ever not been the case. There was no "Fall", and death has nothing to do with "sin". Get over it.
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21-04-2015, 03:46 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(21-04-2015 02:22 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Many of you are saying "you need take my word for it" of necessity as if you are unaware that it is just for a mass murderer, say, to die. Start there with justice, with consequence.

Okay, let's start there. Not only am I not unaware that it is just for a mass murderer, say, to die, it is categorically unjust. It let's the villain off the hook and paroles them prematurely. Merciful yes but "just", no. Fucker needs to sit in a cell and be constantly reminded of and think about what they've done for as long as the State can keep them alive. That's justice.

#sigh
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21-04-2015, 04:20 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(14-04-2015 01:36 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All sin is wrongdoing. All wrongdoing is sin.

Sin was expiated (or so people thought/think) before Jesus with sacrifice. Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel, Noah, Abraham and down the line, employed sacrifices. Sacrifices continued through the Jewish people. What is your interpretation of the many verses that indicate Old Testament sacrifices were to be made for the Israelites as individual and corporate sinners?

Jesus died to pay for the sin of man. He was innocent. I can certainly understand our moral revulsion as substitutionary atonement. I understand where Hitchens and many other skeptics were/are coming from here. I get it. We want to make our own mistakes.

However, for certain mistakes, we truly don't want to pay the consequences. If one was to have an extramarital affair than be discovered, at that time one would either seek forgiveness from their spouse--or if they sought a divorce, from their children!

Yes, we can forgive great evils. However, some sin leads to death. I can forgive someone for stealing from me to do drugs, but if they die because of an overdose there's nothing I can do about that.

Jesus is able to forgive all sin except for the sin of rejecting Him as Savior. That is because likely the sin that many other sins hinge upon is pride.

Your reference to Jesus and pride does not appear justified.
Turning one's will over to a highly questionable individual appears mental to me.
At least Buddha advised his followers to experience, and question everything.
We need to experience to evaluate, not slaughter scapegoats to survive.
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21-04-2015, 05:01 PM (This post was last modified: 21-04-2015 05:57 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(14-04-2015 01:36 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus is able to forgive all sin except for the sin of rejecting Him as Savior. That is because likely the sin that many other sins hinge upon is pride.

Quit telling God what He can't do. The nerve of some people, sheeesh.

#sigh
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22-04-2015, 01:05 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(21-04-2015 02:22 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Mortality is not only a consequence of the Fall but our fall as individuals. We all sin, we all die as I understand it. Then comes judgment.
But, you see, mortality is normal, it is unremarkable.

We take for granted that if we go underwater for a lengthy period of time and cannot breath air then we die.
Same thing goes for if we are set on fire, or electrocuted, or if we eat rotten meat, or if we fall off a cliff, or if we have an accident and our head comes off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw

It is entirely unremarkable that animals die.
We can even look toward an understanding of biology and chemistry and see why humans die. An understanding of DNA also shows why our regeneration of cells does not last forever.

If there was no death, then Earth would be overcrowded,
Evolution does not work with no death because it requires a survival of the fittest rather than the survival of everyone.

If animals were immortal then that would be remarkable, it might need some amazing story to explain it, some convoluted story about immortal gods and souls and sin and sacrifice.

But as it so happens death is unremarkable, it does not require a remarkable story to explain it.
Death happens because it is natural to die.
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22-04-2015, 03:05 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Can we just start renaming threads like this 'Q Bait'? Consider

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
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22-04-2015, 05:43 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2015 05:49 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(21-04-2015 12:58 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-04-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Sin is clearly a powerful force if it is the factor leading unto death. Adam and Eve without sin/disobedience would still be with us. So someone has to die to atone for sin.

You know Q, I find this very confusing.
You state that if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned then humans would not know death. Humans would live on Earth forever. (never mind the logistical issues, of limited resource, food and location for houses etc)

And you claim that Jesus died as a sacrifice to wash away our sins.

But then we have the following conversation


(16-04-2015 09:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. Great question. The answer is "because there are two deaths (separations)". All inherit Adam's mortal nature since the Fall of Eden. However, all are also judged after death to be eternally separated unless they have taken refuge in Christ. Two deaths.
All of a sudden Jesus death doesn't take us back to a place where people don't die. Now all of a sudden there is an invisible, unobservable second death that supposedly we gained from sinning (the first must have been after original sin, right) and once Jesus died then this invisible, unobservable second death no longer happens.

Is this the story?

And of course we can't verify any of this second death stuff, we just have to take your word for it.

I wonder why the dinosaurs; who were around tens of millions of years before humans, died from diseases? I thought Adam eating that apple caused all of that. Consider

Disease and the Demise of the Dinosaurs

A pic of T-Rex fossils with evidence of festering infections in their jaws:

[Image: holes-in-jaws.jpg]

It must've been the devil trying to deceive us.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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