Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-10-2015, 10:25 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(23-10-2015 12:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 11:39 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Sorry but "the young woman will have a child" isn't a SIGN. Behold, this is the sign to you, a young woman will have a child... and when the sign comes, the army that is bothering you will be defeated.

No.

"No" is not an argument, Mr. Ignorant of Scripture. A "sign" to the people of the same time is not a "prophecy" to be fulfilled many centuries later. It's perfectly obvious that Isaiah was talking to the PEOPLE OF HIS OWN TIME, and the young woman of marriageable age found to be pregnant, (which as a court advisor it is more than likely he already knew would happen) was to be "Emmanu-el" (that their god was still with them) was the sign to THEIR OWN TIME. An interpretation of a PRESENT event. The fad of interpreting "peshers" http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278
had not even become popular yet at the time Isaiah would have said that. But then, you know nothing of the actual cultural history of the Ancient Near East. All you know is fundie literal nonsensse you learned by rote repetition. -
+

You REALLY shoulld take a class from a real scholar some day, Q. Tongue

BB,

Repeating, I have my degree in Religion from a secular university. Last time you mentioned it, you are still a student, yes?

Again, you are also goal post shifting. Why? Because whether the prophecy was for later (Mary the virgin) or then (a sign to the king) or both, A YOUNG WOMAN HAVING A CHILD IS NOT A MIRACULOUS SIGN. A virgin bearing a child, IS.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2015, 10:27 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(23-10-2015 07:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Matthew 24:34 "Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

And yet Q has the gall to contradict his own messiah, and talk about "fulfilled" prophesy, when Jebus himself gets it totally wrong. Laughat

Are you forgetful or just lying? I'll say forgetful and give you the benefit of the doubt. Elsewhere I've posted eight possibilities from the Greek, only one of which indicates an imminent second advent. Study Greek sometime, at worst, it will "help" you have ammunition to lob at your enemies, right? Thumbsup

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-10-2015 06:33 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(24-10-2015 02:03 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  QED! Irrational babble from Angryman.

Oh yes. Ralphie. All atheists are angry. That is such a great argument. Don't you have some irrelevant imaginary dots to connect, Ralph ?
Waddell, Ralphie ? Really ?
You do have proof of that shit, right ?
Oh wait. It's more imaginary dots being connected.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Waddell
LMAO

No, but of course, all frequent posters at TTA, who are atheists, are so mad they will have strokes imminently and need our prayer and best wishes!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2015, 10:33 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(23-10-2015 12:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "No" is not an argument, Mr. Ignorant of Scripture. A "sign" to the people of the same time is not a "prophecy" to be fulfilled many centuries later. It's perfectly obvious that Isaiah was talking to the PEOPLE OF HIS OWN TIME, and the young woman of marriageable age found to be pregnant, (which as a court advisor it is more than likely he already knew would happen) was to be "Emmanu-el" (that their god was still with them) was the sign to THEIR OWN TIME. An interpretation of a PRESENT event. The fad of interpreting "peshers" http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid257278
had not even become popular yet at the time Isaiah would have said that. But then, you know nothing of the actual cultural history of the Ancient Near East. All you know is fundie literal nonsensse you learned by rote repetition. -
+

You REALLY shoulld take a class from a real scholar some day, Q. Tongue

BB,

Repeating, I have my degree in Religion from a secular university. Last time you mentioned it, you are still a student, yes?

Again, you are also goal post shifting. Why? Because whether the prophecy was for later (Mary the virgin) or then (a sign to the king) or both, A YOUNG WOMAN HAVING A CHILD IS NOT A MIRACULOUS SIGN. A virgin bearing a child, IS.

It says young woman, not virgin. But even if it said virgin (which is does not), then you're now saying that a virgin birth is not *special* and *unique* to your god being born because it's been done before. It's mundane enough to be repeated, and it was first used on a very unimportant child, so it can't even be shown through the text that the virgin birth will necessarily produce a god. -So of what use is it for this to be a virgin birth at all?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
26-10-2015, 11:10 AM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 06:32 AM by Aliza.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
You know... we really should talk about the virgin birth a little more and get into some more detail. I'll have a post after this one on the subject, but I want to show this little picture of a sampling of verses in the Hebrew scriptures that mention the word "virgin". This is only a sampling, but the message is as plain as day. The Hebrew word "bethula" is used every time that the English word "virgin" appears in the text, except for the one spot that the KJV translates incorrectly. You don't need prior knowledge of Hebrew to review this. Just look at the letters and decide for yourself if they're spelling out the same word.

(Just click on it and zoom in.) You can see for yourself. The Hebrew word "bethula" is used in every example except for Isaiah 7:14

[attachment=3044]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2015, 11:37 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-10-2015 09:41 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Sorry to be so fashionably late on replying to this post back from mid-September. I’m just getting around to reading this post now.

(11-09-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  * Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel

What Paul was not, was a Rabbi, or a student of Hillel, or a student of Gamaliel, as many other people try to claim. (I think you meant Gamaliel because Hillel was from the previous generation.) Paul did not meet the minimum requirements to be a Rabbi because he was not married. Under Jewish law, a man cannot be ordained as a Rabbi unless he is married.

In addition to failing to meet Rabbinic qualifications, Paul also was in violation of Jewish law and was a “sinner” because all men are required to get married and have children. If biological children cannot be possible, then they may adopt children, but Paul did not discuss his wife and children in any of his writings, and as far as I know, he never even tried to identify himself as a Rabbi. If he did, then he was either hiding a wife and family, or he was a liar.

Now, it’s conceptually possible that Paul studied under the masters of his era but didn’t gain Rabbinic ordination because of his status as a bachelor… Except that Paul also gives no evidence that he could read or write Hebrew. Paul quotes the “old testament” from a known mistranslation in the Septuagint! No Torah scholar would EVER read Torah from a translation. Translations are like crutches for people who can’t read it in the original language. They are never the go-to text for people who are well educated. Lack of comprehension of Hebrew is a real stumbling block to anyone who claims to have been a student of the most preeminent Rabbis and Torah scholars of that era. This is akin to someone claiming to be a close student of Stephen Hawking or Lawrence Krauss, but who can’t do basic algebra. The lie is painfully obvious to people in the know.

(11-09-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  * Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc.

Where are these vast scripts from a guy who couldn’t even read Hebrew or follow the must rudimentary tennants of Jewish law?

(11-09-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  * There are numerous verses in Paul denigrating Gentiles as particularly degenerate and flouting the Roman authorities as being utterly unable to try Paul or even hold him in prison! Romans condemns Gentiles for vile sin and their treatment of the Jewish people above all Pauline epistles...

Denigrating gentiles is terribly loathsome behavior. Torah law calls for respectful treatment of non-Jews; not beating them up, insulting them, or calling them dogs as Jesus did. And just so you're aware, treating non-Jews poorly, as the NT says Jesus and Paul did, is considered to be a sin under Torah law.

1. Many scholars think Paul was indeed married, than a widower. One reason I can cite--he speaks knowledgeably on marriage and marriage intimacy...

2. King David called the Gentiles dogs--it's a prophecy. Please don't say the OT condemns King David!

3. I think that Paul taking beatings to witness to the Gentiles, getting rejected by the Jews for witnessing to Gentiles, and Jesus dying for the Gentiles, is "good behavior".

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-10-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-10-2015 11:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(25-10-2015 09:41 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Sorry to be so fashionably late on replying to this post back from mid-September. I’m just getting around to reading this post now.


What Paul was not, was a Rabbi, or a student of Hillel, or a student of Gamaliel, as many other people try to claim. (I think you meant Gamaliel because Hillel was from the previous generation.) Paul did not meet the minimum requirements to be a Rabbi because he was not married. Under Jewish law, a man cannot be ordained as a Rabbi unless he is married.

In addition to failing to meet Rabbinic qualifications, Paul also was in violation of Jewish law and was a “sinner” because all men are required to get married and have children. If biological children cannot be possible, then they may adopt children, but Paul did not discuss his wife and children in any of his writings, and as far as I know, he never even tried to identify himself as a Rabbi. If he did, then he was either hiding a wife and family, or he was a liar.

Now, it’s conceptually possible that Paul studied under the masters of his era but didn’t gain Rabbinic ordination because of his status as a bachelor… Except that Paul also gives no evidence that he could read or write Hebrew. Paul quotes the “old testament” from a known mistranslation in the Septuagint! No Torah scholar would EVER read Torah from a translation. Translations are like crutches for people who can’t read it in the original language. They are never the go-to text for people who are well educated. Lack of comprehension of Hebrew is a real stumbling block to anyone who claims to have been a student of the most preeminent Rabbis and Torah scholars of that era. This is akin to someone claiming to be a close student of Stephen Hawking or Lawrence Krauss, but who can’t do basic algebra. The lie is painfully obvious to people in the know.


Where are these vast scripts from a guy who couldn’t even read Hebrew or follow the must rudimentary tennants of Jewish law?


Denigrating gentiles is terribly loathsome behavior. Torah law calls for respectful treatment of non-Jews; not beating them up, insulting them, or calling them dogs as Jesus did. And just so you're aware, treating non-Jews poorly, as the NT says Jesus and Paul did, is considered to be a sin under Torah law.

1. Many scholars think Paul was indeed married, than a widower. One reason I can cite--he speaks knowledgeably on marriage and marriage intimacy...

2. King David called the Gentiles dogs--it's a prophecy. Please don't say the OT condemns King David!

3. I think that Paul taking beatings to witness to the Gentiles, getting rejected by the Jews for witnessing to Gentiles, and Jesus dying for the Gentiles, is "good behavior".

Paul's refusal to get married after being widowed is a sin.

Jesus called gentiles dogs to their faces. Come on, Q. That's disgusting behavior. How can you even justify that?

Jesus also destroyed fruit trees in a fit of rage. This is a sin according to Jewish law.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
26-10-2015, 11:59 AM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 06:35 AM by Aliza.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
The atheists and I can disagree on whether the bible is true or not, but I think we probably do agree that if Christianity claims to be founded on Jewish principals and Jewish prophesy, then such claims should be unambiguously supported in the founding doctrine. This is especially so if our eternal souls are at risk for not believing.

In the Hebrew Bible, it shows that if G-d had anything important to convey to the Jewish people, he told them all. Miracles were performed out in the open for everyone to see, and “private miracles” were not really incumbent on the Jewish people to believe. –For example whether or not Saul raised Samuel from the dead is not especially important to the framework of what Judaism is, and a person’s belief or disbelief in this event will not change how they behave as a Jew. G-d giving the 10 commandments was very important, so everyone heard G-d speak.

A few more examples of open miracles:
The 10 plagues in Egypt. The entire nations of both the Egyptians and the Jews were said to have witnessed and experienced this.
The parting of the sea; the entire Jewish nation is depicted as having witnessed it.
When Elijah challenged the idolaters in a contest of sacrifices, his bull was consumed in front of everyone.
Prophets were openly tested and their accuracy was proven before everyone before anything they had to say was considered to be valid.
The breastplate of the high priest would light up, and anyone could see it working.
The entire nation witnessed the Jewish redemption in the Queen Esther story.
Not quite a miracle, but the prophesy of the diaspora is something that every Jew can see for themselves.
The rebuilding of Jerusalem; the whole world agrees that the city is there.

Why then, does this supposed really important miracle occur in privacy with Mary or Joseph alone? The supposed fate of my eternal soul is dependent on me knowing this information; why didn’t G-d tell the entire nation as he had done in the past?

If this virgin birth prophecy was really a well-known messianic prophesy as Christians often posit, then why didn’t Joseph and Mary shout from the rooftops that she was pregnant with the messiah? Why didn’t they run down to Sanhedrin and announce their discovery?

If the Jewish people understood Isaiah 7:14 to be a messianic passage about a virgin birth, then I think the new testament should look a little bit more like my verions which are edited to make them sound more in-line with what Christians say were Jewish expectations of Messiah during the era that Jesus was said to have lived:

Aliza's Luke:
34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” “Oh, I must be the mother of the messiah, because every Israelite is expecting that the messiah will be born to a virgin. I’m so humbled to be chosen for this great honor.”

Aliza's Matthew:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man,- and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. -knew very well that the messiah was prophesied to be born to a virgin, and so he heralded his amazing news to all of the Jews and to Sanhedrin. But because so many girls who claimed to be virgins turned up pregnant every year, it was important for G-d to acknowledge his parentage of this child being born to this woman. So Joseph brought Mary to the Temple where the High Priest held up his breastplate for all to see. Then the words lit up, and clearly announced that it was G-d’s own son in Mary’s womb. It was very fortunate that every Jew throughout the entire world was gathered at the base of the Temple to personally witness this amazing event. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” 22 Now all this took place to fulfill for the second time what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” 24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and then all was approached by all of the Jewish people who congratulated the parents to be, and rejoiced because they personally witnessed G-d announcing this amazing turn of events through the priest's breastplate. There was no question among anyone what had just been told to them. Joseph did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

See, I fixed it. It's much better now.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Aliza's post
26-10-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-10-2015 11:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. King David called the Gentiles dogs--it's a prophecy. Please don't say the OT condemns King David!

You're not referring to Psalm 22, are you? The one that has an entire animal theme, and one particular section is comparing David's enemies to being a like a pack of dogs attacking him. First of all, he's talking about evil people; his enemies, not gentiles in general. He's not saying that his enemies are like dogs, in that they should get scraps to eat and sleep on the floor as second class citizens because of their religion. He's making an analogy for attacks against him. It's an appropriate analogy under the circumstances.

If you're not talking about Psalm 22, then please point me in the right direction.

(26-10-2015 11:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. I think that Paul taking beatings to witness to the Gentiles, getting rejected by the Jews for witnessing to Gentiles, and Jesus dying for the Gentiles, is "good behavior".

This is terrible behavior, and it's not Jewish.

Dying for anyone else is not noble. It's stupid, and it's a sin according to Jewish law. I guess the authors of the NT didn't understand Jewish law very well.

Paul got rejected by the Jews because he was a blasphemer. Torah gives clear instruction on how to handle people like this.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Aliza's post
26-10-2015, 01:45 PM (This post was last modified: 26-10-2015 05:47 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  BB,

Repeating, I have my degree in Religion from a secular university. Last time you mentioned it, you are still a student, yes?

A BA. I'm a grad student.

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, you are also goal post shifting. Why? Because whether the prophecy was for later (Mary the virgin) or then (a sign to the king) or both, A YOUNG WOMAN HAVING A CHILD IS NOT A MIRACULOUS SIGN. A virgin bearing a child, IS.

Exactly. It was NEVER about a "virgin" (the word was MISTRANSLATED) having a child, or a "miraculous event". Those are your presentist false interpretations slapped onto ancient literature. It's not possible for many many reasons. You mistake what a "biblical" miracle is. It's a *natural* event in which the *hand of god* is seen to be operating. You don't seem to even know the basics of Bible 101. I shifted NO goal posts. When Isaiah said that to the people of his day (which was the role of a prophet) he meant the child was a sign that their god was with them, which is why he said the baby would be called Emmanu-el. God is with us. The whole business of interpreting "peshers" having secret hidden meanings (about the future) did not arise for centuries after that was written. I repeat. You REALLY know nothing about the Bible, or the culture that produced it.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: