Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice

[Bucky Ball]

(26-10-2015 11:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Many scholars think Paul was indeed married, than a widower. One reason I can cite--he speaks knowledgeably on marriage and marriage intimacy...

He was gay. That was his "thorn" he spoke of.

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. King David called the Gentiles dogs--it's a prophecy. Please don't say the OT condemns King David!

That's not what prophecy is. You really need to re-take Bible 101. David did all kinds of stupid sinful things. What ? You never even read the Bible ?

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. I think that Paul taking beatings to witness to the Gentiles, getting rejected by the Jews for witnessing to Gentiles, and Jesus dying for the Gentiles, is "good behavior".

Whatever.

[Aliza]

(26-10-2015 01:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. King David called the Gentiles dogs--it's a prophecy. Please don't say the OT condemns King David!

That's not what prophecy is. You really need to re-take Bible 101. David did all kinds of stupid sinful things. What ? You never even read the Bible ?

I'm just going to piggyback on this real quick...

David sinned. We know that. With his monumental sin of sending Bat Sheva's husband to the front line so he could marry her for himself, it says that David was forgiven instantaneously upon feeling genuine remorse. No sacrifice needed to gain G-d's forgiveness.

Sincere regret, fix the error if you can, legitimately change your behavior, don't do it again if the same opportunity presents itself.

That's the real formula for forgiveness that's spelled out in the book that Christians believe their religion comes from. Blood was simply not an ingredient necessary for David to be cleared of his sin.

[Chas]

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, you are also goal post shifting. Why? Because whether the prophecy was for later (Mary the virgin) or then (a sign to the king) or both, A YOUNG WOMAN HAVING A CHILD IS NOT A MIRACULOUS SIGN. A virgin bearing a child, IS.

There is no evidence that it ever happened. So there's that.

[GirlyMan]

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, you are also goal post shifting. Why? Because whether the prophecy was for later (Mary the virgin) or then (a sign to the king) or both, A YOUNG WOMAN HAVING A CHILD IS NOT A MIRACULOUS SIGN. [b]A virgin bearing a child, IS[/b].

virgin + turkey baster + sperm sample = virgin bearing a child. No miracle required.

[TheInquisition]

(26-10-2015 07:31 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, you are also goal post shifting. Why? Because whether the prophecy was for later (Mary the virgin) or then (a sign to the king) or both, A YOUNG WOMAN HAVING A CHILD IS NOT A MIRACULOUS SIGN. [b]A virgin bearing a child, IS[/b].

virgin + turkey baster + sperm sample = virgin bearing a child. No miracle required.

Makes you kind of wonder, why wouldn't there be a gospel of the hymen inspector?

Whoever inspected her hymen was an awfully important testimony/eyewitness.

[The Q Continuum]

(26-10-2015 11:40 AM)Aliza Wrote:  

(26-10-2015 11:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Many scholars think Paul was indeed married, than a widower. One reason I can cite--he speaks knowledgeably on marriage and marriage intimacy...

2. King David called the Gentiles dogs--it's a prophecy. Please don't say the OT condemns King David!

3. I think that Paul taking beatings to witness to the Gentiles, getting rejected by the Jews for witnessing to Gentiles, and Jesus dying for the Gentiles, is "good behavior".

Paul's refusal to get married after being widowed is a sin.

Jesus called gentiles dogs to their faces. Come on, Q. That's disgusting behavior. How can you even justify that?

Jesus also destroyed fruit trees in a fit of rage. This is a sin according to Jewish law.

One may serve God in singlehood for honor, not as sin.

Jesus was quoting a prophecy just before He released a miracle on the person He address that way. No.

Cutting a tree down is not a sin, and not only was the tree not utterly destroyed, Jesus spoke of it bearing fruit again in the future.

[The Q Continuum]

(26-10-2015 11:59 AM)Aliza Wrote:  The atheists and I can disagree on whether the bible is true or not, but I think we probably do agree that if Christianity claims to be founded on Jewish principals and Jewish prophesy, then such claims should be unambiguously supported in the founding doctrine. This is especially so if our eternal souls are at risk for not believing.

In the Hebrew Bible, it shows that if G-d had anything important to convey to the Jewish people, he told them all. Miracles were performed out in the open for everyone to see, and “private miracles” were not really incumbent on the Jewish people to believe. –For example whether or not Saul raised Samuel from the dead is not especially important to the framework of what Judaism is, and a person’s belief or disbelief in this event will not change how they behave as a Jew. G-d giving the 10 commandments was very important, so everyone heard G-d speak.

A few more examples of open miracles:
The 10 plagues in Egypt. The entire nations of both the Egyptians and the Jews were said to have witnessed and experienced this.
The parting of the sea; the entire Jewish nation is depicted as having witnessed it.
When Elijah challenged the idolaters in a contest of sacrifices, his bull was consumed in front of everyone.
Prophets were openly tested and their accuracy was proven before everyone before anything they had to say was considered to be valid.
The breastplate of the high priest would light up, and anyone could see it working.
The entire nation witnessed the Jewish redemption in the Queen Esther story.
Not quite a miracle, but the prophesy of the diaspora is something that every Jew can see for themselves.
The rebuilding of Jerusalem; the whole world agrees that the city is there.

Why then, does this supposed really important miracle occur in privacy with Mary or Joseph alone? The supposed fate of my eternal soul is dependent on me knowing this information; why didn’t G-d tell the entire nation as he had done in the past?

If this virgin birth prophecy was really a well-known messianic prophesy as Christians often posit, then why didn’t Joseph and Mary shout from the rooftops that she was pregnant with the messiah? Why didn’t they run down to Sanhedrin and announce their discovery?

If the Jewish people understood Isaiah 7:14 to be a messianic passage about a virgin birth, then I think the new testament should look a little bit more like my verions which are edited to make them sound more in-line with what Christians say were Jewish expectations of Messiah during the era that Jesus was said to have lived:

Aliza's Luke:
34 Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I am a virgin?” “Oh, I must be the mother of the messiah, because every Israelite is expecting that the messiah will be born to a virgin. I’m so humbled to be chosen for this great honor.”

Aliza's Matthew:
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. 19 And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man,- and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly. -knew very well that the messiah was prophesied to be born to a virgin, and so he heralded his amazing news to all of the Jews and to Sanhedrin. But because so many girls who claimed to be virgins turned up pregnant every year, it was important for G-d to acknowledge his parentage of this child being born to this woman. So Joseph brought Mary to the Temple where the High Priest held up his breastplate for all to see. Then the words lit up, and clearly announced that it was G-d’s own son in Mary’s womb. It was very fortunate that every Jew throughout the entire world was gathered at the base of the Temple to personally witness this amazing event. 20 But when he had considered this, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” 22 Now all this took place to fulfill for the second time what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23 “BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” 24 And Joseph awoke from his sleep and then all was approached by all of the Jewish people who congratulated the parents to be, and rejoiced because they personally witnessed G-d announcing this amazing turn of events through the priest's breastplate. There was no question among anyone what had just been told to them. Joseph did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

See, I fixed it. It's much better now.

Messianic expectation at the time was high. Mary had a response that shows how normal the Bible heroes were--I think any virgin would say, "Whoa!" but Mary soon after confirms her excitement exactly as you wrote--"I'm the Lord's servant..." Joseph also behaved as a hero, seeking a quiet annulment of their engagement rather than shaming Mary.

My point remains. A young woman having a child is hardly a miracle sign. The same G_d gave Abraham, Hannah and others miracles progeny.

[The Q Continuum]

(26-10-2015 01:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:  

(26-10-2015 11:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. King David called the Gentiles dogs--it's a prophecy. Please don't say the OT condemns King David!

You're not referring to Psalm 22, are you? The one that has an entire animal theme, and one particular section is comparing David's enemies to being a like a pack of dogs attacking him. First of all, he's talking about evil people; his enemies, not gentiles in general. He's not saying that his enemies are like dogs, in that they should get scraps to eat and sleep on the floor as second class citizens because of their religion. He's making an analogy for attacks against him. It's an appropriate analogy under the circumstances.

If you're not talking about Psalm 22, then please point me in the right direction.

(26-10-2015 11:37 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. I think that Paul taking beatings to witness to the Gentiles, getting rejected by the Jews for witnessing to Gentiles, and Jesus dying for the Gentiles, is "good behavior".

This is terrible behavior, and it's not Jewish.

Dying for anyone else is not noble. It's stupid, and it's a sin according to Jewish law. I guess the authors of the NT didn't understand Jewish law very well.

Paul got rejected by the Jews because he was a blasphemer. Torah gives clear instruction on how to handle people like this.

We can start with Psalm 22 if you like:

Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

We can do more but you can probably see the prophecies of Jesus--particular since David was never personally surround by Gentiles who pierced his hands and feet and stared at his shredded flesh whipped down to the bone, while some other Gentiles gambled for his clothing!

I'm curious--what is the blasphemy Paul committed, do you think?

[The Q Continuum]

(26-10-2015 01:45 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  BB,

Repeating, I have my degree in Religion from a secular university. Last time you mentioned it, you are still a student, yes?

A BA. I'm a grad student.

(26-10-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, you are also goal post shifting. Why? Because whether the prophecy was for later (Mary the virgin) or then (a sign to the king) or both, A YOUNG WOMAN HAVING A CHILD IS NOT A MIRACULOUS SIGN. A virgin bearing a child, IS.

Exactly. It was NEVER about a "virgin" (the word was MISTRANSLATED) having a child, or a "miraculous event". Those are your presentist false interpretations slapped onto ancient literature. It's not possible for many many reasons. You mistake what a "biblical" miracle is. It's a *natural* event in which the *hand of god* is seen to be operating. You don't seem to even know the basics of Bible 101. I shifted NO goal posts. When Isaiah said that to the people of his day (which was the role of a prophet) he meant the child was a sign that their god was with them, which is why he said the baby would be called Emmanu-el. God is with us. The whole business of interpreting "peshers" having secret hidden meanings (about the future) did not arise for centuries after that was written. I repeat. You REALLY know nothing about the Bible, or the culture that produced it.

Okay, but would you please explain how it's a "sign" for a young woman to have a child? That doesn't sound like the other "signs" God produces in the scriptures. Does a young woman having a child sound like a miracle to you or a natural event?

[RocketSurgeon76]

Q - That's the definition of alma, whether you like it or not. The sign to the king of whom Isaiah is speaking (and the people of Israel) would be a child born to a young woman of the kingdom, who would lead the people from their bondage to an age of Israelite glory again. More importantly, it is the prophet Isaiah himself, speaking to King Ahaz, telling him that God will show HIM a sign of the deliverer, if he just asks. Ahaz refuses because of the verses about not tempting the Lord, and so Isaiah tells him what the sign will be:

7:11 יא שְׁאַל-לְךָ אוֹת, מֵעִם יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ; הַעְמֵק שְׁאָלָה, אוֹ הַגְבֵּהַּ לְמָעְלָה.
"Ask a sign from the Lord your God, from lowest Sheol or from highest heaven."
7:12 יב וַיֹּאמֶר, אָחָז: לֹא-אֶשְׁאַל וְלֹא-אֲנַסֶּה, אֶת-יְהוָה.
But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not test the Lord."
7:13 יג וַיֹּאמֶר, שִׁמְעוּ-נָא בֵּית דָּוִד: הַמְעַט מִכֶּם הַלְאוֹת אֲנָשִׁים, כִּי תַלְאוּ גַּם אֶת-אֱלֹהָי.
Then he retorted: "Listen, house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you also try the patience of my God?
7:14 יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.
therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: a maiden is with child and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel.
7:15 טו חֶמְאָה וּדְבַשׁ, יֹאכֵל--לְדַעְתּוֹ מָאוֹס בָּרָע, וּבָחוֹר בַּטּוֹב.
By the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good, he will be eating curds and honey.
7:16 טז כִּי בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, מָאֹס בָּרָע--וּבָחֹר בַּטּוֹב: תֵּעָזֵב הָאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה קָץ, מִפְּנֵי שְׁנֵי מְלָכֶיהָ.
For before the child knows to reject the bad and choose the good, desolation will come upon the land of the two kings before whom you now cower."

You don't have to like it, but that's what it says. The Christians got it wrong, when coming up with their "101 Prophecies That Predicted Our Leader Was The Messiah, And You Won't Believe What Happened Next!" click-bait.