Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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27-10-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-10-2015 02:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 01:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That's not what prophecy is. You really need to re-take Bible 101. David did all kinds of stupid sinful things. What ? You never even read the Bible ?

I'm just going to piggyback on this real quick...

David sinned. We know that. With his monumental sin of sending Bat Sheva's husband to the front line so he could marry her for himself, it says that David was forgiven instantaneously upon feeling genuine remorse. No sacrifice needed to gain G-d's forgiveness.

Sincere regret, fix the error if you can, legitimately change your behavior, don't do it again if the same opportunity presents itself.

That's the real formula for forgiveness that's spelled out in the book that Christians believe their religion comes from. Blood was simply not an ingredient necessary for David to be cleared of his sin.

If blood was unneeded, why did David, in keeping with the Mosaic Law, present thousands of animals to be sacrificed? Why the great detail in having hundreds of priests make near-continual offerings in Jerusalem for Israel?

You might say those sacrifices were metaphorical in nature, and indeed, if they could really take away sin, they would need not to have been repeated sacrifices. They point to Messiah. But, you will have to say something to dismiss them to support your concept that atonement is made via prayer and repentance rather than by shed blood. Moses said that the Jewish people were given animal atonement as the "blood is the life". We know that oxygenated blood is needed to support organic life.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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27-10-2015, 02:16 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 02:13 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Q - That's the definition of alma, whether you like it or not. The sign to the king of whom Isaiah is speaking (and the people of Israel) would be a child born to a young woman of the kingdom, who would lead the people from their bondage to an age of Israelite glory again. More importantly, it is the prophet Isaiah himself, speaking to King Ahaz, telling him that God will show HIM a sign of the deliverer, if he just asks. Ahaz refuses because of the verses about not tempting the Lord, and so Isaiah tells him what the sign will be:

7:11 יא שְׁאַל-לְךָ אוֹת, מֵעִם יְהוָה אֱלֹהֶיךָ; הַעְמֵק שְׁאָלָה, אוֹ הַגְבֵּהַּ לְמָעְלָה.
"Ask a sign from the Lord your God, from lowest Sheol or from highest heaven."
7:12 יב וַיֹּאמֶר, אָחָז: לֹא-אֶשְׁאַל וְלֹא-אֲנַסֶּה, אֶת-יְהוָה.
But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not test the Lord."
7:13 יג וַיֹּאמֶר, שִׁמְעוּ-נָא בֵּית דָּוִד: הַמְעַט מִכֶּם הַלְאוֹת אֲנָשִׁים, כִּי תַלְאוּ גַּם אֶת-אֱלֹהָי.
Then he retorted: "Listen, house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you also try the patience of my God?
7:14 יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל.
therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: a maiden is with child and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel.
7:15 טו חֶמְאָה וּדְבַשׁ, יֹאכֵל--לְדַעְתּוֹ מָאוֹס בָּרָע, וּבָחוֹר בַּטּוֹב.
By the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good, he will be eating curds and honey.
7:16 טז כִּי בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, מָאֹס בָּרָע--וּבָחֹר בַּטּוֹב: תֵּעָזֵב הָאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה קָץ, מִפְּנֵי שְׁנֵי מְלָכֶיהָ.
For before the child knows to reject the bad and choose the good, desolation will come upon the land of the two kings before whom you now cower."

You don't have to like it, but that's what it says. The Christians got it wrong, when coming up with their "101 Prophecies That Predicted Our Leader Was The Messiah, And You Won't Believe What Happened Next!" click-bait.

The child led Israel to glory "before he was old enough to know right from wrong"? No. You got this off the real arbiter of all truth, a quick Google search! No. Drinking Beverage

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27-10-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Thaaaaaaat's not what it says, dude. Read again.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-10-2015, 02:43 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 02:56 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 02:14 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 02:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I'm just going to piggyback on this real quick...

David sinned. We know that. With his monumental sin of sending Bat Sheva's husband to the front line so he could marry her for himself, it says that David was forgiven instantaneously upon feeling genuine remorse. No sacrifice needed to gain G-d's forgiveness.

Sincere regret, fix the error if you can, legitimately change your behavior, don't do it again if the same opportunity presents itself.

That's the real formula for forgiveness that's spelled out in the book that Christians believe their religion comes from. Blood was simply not an ingredient necessary for David to be cleared of his sin.

If blood was unneeded, why did David, in keeping with the Mosaic Law, present thousands of animals to be sacrificed? Why the great detail in having hundreds of priests make near-continual offerings in Jerusalem for Israel?

You might say those sacrifices were metaphorical in nature, and indeed, if they could really take away sin, they would need not to have been repeated sacrifices. They point to Messiah. But, you will have to say something to dismiss them to support your concept that atonement is made via prayer and repentance rather than by shed blood. Moses said that the Jewish people were given animal atonement as the "blood is the life". We know that oxygenated blood is needed to support organic life.

They point to nothing except to your bronze age delusions.
Get a life.
A deity which exists in a Reality in which blood (or anything else) is "required", is subject to Reality and not it's master. Take your nonsense and peddle that shit somewhere else.

"Shed blood" is not the important element in Hebrew sacrifice. It's a multifactorial subject, and not about "shed blood".
http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/TBv2i5_Gilders2.pdf
Read and learn Q. You are totally incompetent to even begin to discuss the subject of the Bible.
Your Fundie education does not serve you well.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-10-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Unless you think the Bible Gateway online bible hub is a "quick Google search".

Maybe you'd prefer it in the NIV? http://biblehub.com/niv/isaiah/7.htm

What about the NASB? http://biblehub.com/nasb/isaiah/7.htm

Both of those say "virgin" in English, of course, since the whole point of this discussion is how the New Testament prophecy-makers got the translation disastrously wrong, but even in the "virgin versions", it says that Isaiah is talking to King Ahaz about what will happen between the time the child born during his reign is old enough to learn right from wrong and the time he grows up into the prophesied leader... in that time period, two kingdoms will render Israel/Judah desolate.

It's not a prophecy of some future event; it's a prophecy of something that was occurring in the reign of Ahaz, a warning from one of his prophets about something that was about to happen, and offering God's guidance through that time of struggle. If you want to know why alma/betulah is a critical distinction, read an actual analysis by a Hebrew scholar, here:

http://outreachjudaism.org/alma-virgin/

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-10-2015, 02:45 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 02:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-10-2015 01:24 PM)Aliza Wrote:  You're not referring to Psalm 22, are you? The one that has an entire animal theme, and one particular section is comparing David's enemies to being a like a pack of dogs attacking him. First of all, he's talking about evil people; his enemies, not gentiles in general. He's not saying that his enemies are like dogs, in that they should get scraps to eat and sleep on the floor as second class citizens because of their religion. He's making an analogy for attacks against him. It's an appropriate analogy under the circumstances.

If you're not talking about Psalm 22, then please point me in the right direction.


This is terrible behavior, and it's not Jewish.

Dying for anyone else is not noble. It's stupid, and it's a sin according to Jewish law. I guess the authors of the NT didn't understand Jewish law very well.

Paul got rejected by the Jews because he was a blasphemer. Torah gives clear instruction on how to handle people like this.

We can start with Psalm 22 if you like:

Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

We can do more but you can probably see the prophecies of Jesus--particular since David was never personally surround by Gentiles who pierced his hands and feet and stared at his shredded flesh whipped down to the bone, while some other Gentiles gambled for his clothing!

I'm curious--what is the blasphemy Paul committed, do you think?

Oh, Q! It looks like you've got a little mistranslation on your scripture there. Here, I've got some club soda. Let me get that for you.

17) For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, they are at my hands and feet.

This isn't prophecy. It's a story about David's enemies. It's a present tense kind of thing, not about the future.
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27-10-2015, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2015 03:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 02:45 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 02:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We can start with Psalm 22 if you like:

Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

We can do more but you can probably see the prophecies of Jesus--particular since David was never personally surround by Gentiles who pierced his hands and feet and stared at his shredded flesh whipped down to the bone, while some other Gentiles gambled for his clothing!

I'm curious--what is the blasphemy Paul committed, do you think?

Oh, Q! It looks like you've got a little mistranslation on your scripture there. Here, I've got some club soda. Let me get that for you.

17) For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, they are at my hands and feet.

This isn't prophecy. It's a story about David's enemies. It's a present tense kind of thing, not about the future.

But you have to realize these Fundamentalists have their entire worldview built on the fallacy of prophecy as fortune-telling and omen reading. It was forbidden in Deuteronomy. It came into fashion in the later apocalyptic period around the turn of the millenium, or just before.
The English word "maiden" is not a correct translation, Q, (and you know that). If you don't, you know even less than I thought.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-10-2015, 03:18 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
I'm trying to figure out why this information doesn't ENRAGE Christians, when they learn it.

What honest person can stare right in the face of a clear, obvious, and deliberate mistranslation of the book of Isaiah in order to make it fit a story about Jesus, and not come to the immediate thought, "Oh shit, the writers of the Christian Bible changed the Bible to make it fit!!!"

There is no honest way to make "almah" into "betulah", or to think that the words are interchangeable, given that Isaiah uses both words (betulah is used seven times; almah only once, in 7:14) and it's clear from other OT verses that almah can actually refer to a whore, while betulah never can.

Unless you have as poor a grasp on Hebrew as the NT writers obviously did, and you're not willing to listen to actual Israeli scholars tell you the reality of the language and how it was used properly (or not), you cannot come to any other honest conclusion but "they changed the Bible to make it fit!!!"

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-10-2015, 03:37 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-10-2015 11:10 AM)Aliza Wrote:  You know... we really should talk about the virgin birth a little more and get into some more detail. I'll have a post after this one on the subject, but I want to show this little picture of a sampling of verses in the Hebrew scriptures that mention the word "virgin". This is only a sampling, but the message is as plain as day. The Hebrew word "bethula" is used every time that the English word "virgin" appears in the text, except for the one spot that the KJV translates incorrectly. You don't need prior knowledge of Hebrew to review this. Just look at the letters and decide for yourself if they're spelling out the same word.

(Just click on it and zoom in.) You can see for yourself. The Hebrew word "bethula" is used in every example except for Isaiah 7:14

Bump

[Image: attachment.php?aid=3044]
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27-10-2015, 03:45 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Likewise, Rabbi Singer points out where "alma(h)" is used to refer to a sneaky, shameless whore (not my description, just how the verse is being used) in Proverbs 30:18-20

"There are three things which are too wonderful for me, for which I do not understand: 19 the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [almah]. 20 This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

http://outreachjudaism.org/alma-virgin/

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