Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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27-10-2015, 03:58 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 03:18 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm trying to figure out why this information doesn't ENRAGE Christians, when they learn it.

What honest person can stare right in the face of a clear, obvious, and deliberate mistranslation of the book of Isaiah in order to make it fit a story about Jesus, and not come to the immediate thought, "Oh shit, the writers of the Christian Bible changed the Bible to make it fit!!!"

There is no honest way to make "almah" into "betulah", or to think that the words are interchangeable, given that Isaiah uses both words (betulah is used seven times; almah only once, in 7:14) and it's clear from other OT verses that almah can actually refer to a whore, while betulah never can.

Unless you have as poor a grasp on Hebrew as the NT writers obviously did, and you're not willing to listen to actual Israeli scholars tell you the reality of the language and how it was used properly (or not), you cannot come to any other honest conclusion but "they changed the Bible to make it fit!!!"

Actually, it does enrage a good number of them. In the last few years, our synagogues and online sites have been flooded with Christians who want to hear what we have to say. In all my life, I never thought I would witness something like this, because all I've ever been told is that Christians think we're stupid, that we don't read our own scriptures, and that they replaced us theologically, so there would be no reason to seek the Jew's opinion of our scripture anyway.

We don't advertise (we wouldn't anyway), and we're not trying to get them to convert to Judaism. They are coming to us of their own accord, and all we're doing is answering the questions. I've seen more Christians walk away from Christianity in the last few years than I've ever seen Jews going to Jews for Jesus in my entire life.
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27-10-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 03:45 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Likewise, Rabbi Singer points out where "alma(h)" is used to refer to a sneaky, shameless whore (not my description, just how the verse is being used) in Proverbs 30:18-20

"There are three things which are too wonderful for me, for which I do not understand: 19 the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [almah]. 20 This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

http://outreachjudaism.org/alma-virgin/

Not that it makes any difference to the larger issue here, but I think you're misreading that. I would say that verse 20 is the start of a new thought (a separate "proverb", if you will) rather than a commentary on verse 19. Of course, I could be wrong.
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27-10-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 04:48 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 03:45 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Likewise, Rabbi Singer points out where "alma(h)" is used to refer to a sneaky, shameless whore (not my description, just how the verse is being used) in Proverbs 30:18-20

"There are three things which are too wonderful for me, for which I do not understand: 19 the way of an eagle in the sky, the way of a serpent on a rock, the way of a ship in the middle of the sea, and the way of a man with a young woman [almah]. 20 This is the way of an adulterous woman: she eats and wipes her mouth, and says, “I have done no wrong.”

http://outreachjudaism.org/alma-virgin/

Not that it makes any difference to the larger issue here, but I think you're misreading that. I would say that verse 20 is the start of a new thought (a separate "proverb", if you will) rather than a commentary on verse 19. Of course, I could be wrong.

According to Singer, the thing the eagle, the serpent-on-a-rock, and a ship at sea have in common is that their actions do not leave a trail or traceable path. It's a metaphor setting up this woman's ability to claim no wrongdoing when she's whoring; in other words, it's "It is beyond me how people can violate my cultural norms/expectations and feel no shame".

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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27-10-2015, 06:02 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Aliza - Actually, I have always had a talent for reading meaning in metaphors not familiar to my own culture. It may stem from the enormous volume of sci-fi and fantasy literature I consumed as a child, in which imagining foreign species' cultural customs was the norm! This was noticed early-on, in my church, and I was given quite a bit of praise for my ability to do research and find out exactly what the passage's idiom was aiming to say... the problem was, my answers didn't entirely match theirs, and I refused to bend when I was certain that my interpretation was better than theirs. They would quote Greek or Hebrew words at me out of the verses; I'd go look them up and learn the rest of the potentially-contentious portions, and not budge from my position unless someone made a better argument. The more I looked, the more I found I disagreed... this was only imperfectly tolerated by my religious-social group!

Ironically, it was a Jewish family with whom I had made friends, whose son was my age and also a genius, but his gift for words exceeded my own by far, and he already knew Hebrew and a couple of dead languages (he showed me the Epic of Gilgamesh and read parts of it in the original... yeah, one of thooose kinds of people!). He also taught himself Sindarin (elvish), so there's that. I learned the lettering system, and we exchanged messages in class, sometimes. Big Grin

When Jonathan and I started looking at some of his translation notes on Tanakh, it turned out I was right about a few things my elders had been dead-wrong about... or at least, I figured out some of the critical metaphors (important, since half the language's means of communication was concepts/metaphors/idioms in "rhyming" couplets) much more closely to how the Jewish scholars figured it. I pointed this out to my elders, who actually were delighted by this but made it clear that I was still "wrong" (and so, of course, were you Hebrews), because the church was at the time "buddying up" with Israel during the Reagan years of ultraconservative/ultrareligious power, so they couldn't really disapprove of me trying to get "closer to the truth" by consulting the "Source", so to speak. It was treated as, "You think that now, but you'll learn better someday, youngster." I was offended less by the fact that they had not accepted my work as serious, but rather the way they were so confident in writing off the brightest minds of an entire people, like that. Especially the people who invented the language and still spoke it! I put aside my doubts, at the time, agreeing with my elders that it was better to keep learning and reserve judgement until I was older... but when I learned that I was flat-out being LIED to, in my later teens, about things like Creationism vs. science, I recalled a long list of assembled-but-ignored disagreements with the church. And my research began anew... and religion lost the war, in the end.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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28-10-2015, 09:32 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 02:43 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 02:14 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If blood was unneeded, why did David, in keeping with the Mosaic Law, present thousands of animals to be sacrificed? Why the great detail in having hundreds of priests make near-continual offerings in Jerusalem for Israel?

You might say those sacrifices were metaphorical in nature, and indeed, if they could really take away sin, they would need not to have been repeated sacrifices. They point to Messiah. But, you will have to say something to dismiss them to support your concept that atonement is made via prayer and repentance rather than by shed blood. Moses said that the Jewish people were given animal atonement as the "blood is the life". We know that oxygenated blood is needed to support organic life.

They point to nothing except to your bronze age delusions.
Get a life.
A deity which exists in a Reality in which blood (or anything else) is "required", is subject to Reality and not it's master. Take your nonsense and peddle that shit somewhere else.

"Shed blood" is not the important element in Hebrew sacrifice. It's a multifactorial subject, and not about "shed blood".
http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/TBv2i5_Gilders2.pdf
Read and learn Q. You are totally incompetent to even begin to discuss the subject of the Bible.
Your Fundie education does not serve you well.

Again, BB, you and others here have the remarkable ability to constantly speak in general, sweeping statements--which statements underlie your near-total Bible illiteracy. Watch! Learn!

BB says, "No, Q, "shed blood" is not the important element in Hebrew sacrifice--it's multifaceted, multi-layered, subtle..."

Q says, "BB, most Hebrew sacrifices as outlined in the Pentateuch require killing animals and shedding blood. Therefore, simple calculations indicate that the Israelites used perhaps tens of millions of animals over more than a millennia of sacrifice. David alone ordained hundreds of priests to continually, perpetually offer all types of animal sacrifices, and daily, at the Temple. Every ancient culture in the ANE knew the Jews shed blood, while the Gentiles drank blood. Why, even at TTA, atheists get their knickers twisted over their pro-animal frustrations at what the Israelites did for their sin."

So please tell us--just what--exactly, precisely, specifically, was THE important element in Hebrew sacrifice? Because even secular students of history understand the shed blood of Jesus Christ was prefigured in the shed blood of the Temple/Tabernacle sacrifices. Please, enlighten us. And please, stand behind your general statements like "it was just one of a multifaceted retinue of things..."

Would it help you for me to repost here, say, 1,000 Bible verses discussing the necessity of animal sacrifices over the course of the OT and NT scriptures?

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-10-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 02:45 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Unless you think the Bible Gateway online bible hub is a "quick Google search".

Maybe you'd prefer it in the NIV? http://biblehub.com/niv/isaiah/7.htm

What about the NASB? http://biblehub.com/nasb/isaiah/7.htm

Both of those say "virgin" in English, of course, since the whole point of this discussion is how the New Testament prophecy-makers got the translation disastrously wrong, but even in the "virgin versions", it says that Isaiah is talking to King Ahaz about what will happen between the time the child born during his reign is old enough to learn right from wrong and the time he grows up into the prophesied leader... in that time period, two kingdoms will render Israel/Judah desolate.

It's not a prophecy of some future event; it's a prophecy of something that was occurring in the reign of Ahaz, a warning from one of his prophets about something that was about to happen, and offering God's guidance through that time of struggle. If you want to know why alma/betulah is a critical distinction, read an actual analysis by a Hebrew scholar, here:

http://outreachjudaism.org/alma-virgin/

"Like a virgin, hey! Prophesied the very first time! Like a virrrrrginnnn..." feel your goal posts, shifting miiiiiine..."

No. A virgin giving birth is a sign, a young woman is called "a daily occurrence" regardless of whether you are looking at the Ahaz fulfillment or Jesus Christ.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-10-2015, 09:38 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 02:45 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 02:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  We can start with Psalm 22 if you like:

Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

We can do more but you can probably see the prophecies of Jesus--particular since David was never personally surround by Gentiles who pierced his hands and feet and stared at his shredded flesh whipped down to the bone, while some other Gentiles gambled for his clothing!

I'm curious--what is the blasphemy Paul committed, do you think?

Oh, Q! It looks like you've got a little mistranslation on your scripture there. Here, I've got some club soda. Let me get that for you.

17) For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, they are at my hands and feet.

This isn't prophecy. It's a story about David's enemies. It's a present tense kind of thing, not about the future.

Of course we may differ:

This verse, which is Psalm 22:17 in the Hebrew verse numbering, reads in the Masoretic Text as: כארי ידי ורגלי, which may be read literally as "like a lion my hands and my feet". The full verse of the Masoretic text reads: כי סבבוני כלבים עדת מרעים הקיפוני כארי ידי ורגלי׃

When translated into English, the syntactical form of this Hebrew phrase appears to be lacking a verb, as verbs are commonly omitted in the Hebrew present tense and otherwise inferred through context. In this context the phrase was commonly explained in early Rabbinical paraphrases as "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet".

The Septuagint, a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας ("they have dug my hands and feet"), which Christian commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as "pierced".

Aquila of Sinope, a 2nd-century CE Greek convert to Christianity and later to Judaism, undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet".

The Jewish Publication Society translates the phrase a "Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet".

**

It's a free country. I guess your problem is since you say it isn't prophecy but a discourse on David--you'd first need to show an example from David's life where Psalm 22 actually happened. When did this happen to David, for one example from this and a HOST of other Psalms?

All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Again, this happened to Jesus Christ. The THEY is Gentiles, when did Gentiles gamble over David's singular garment?

I suppose I can provide approximately 500 similar verses describing the ministry of Y'Shua in prophecy--but my underlying question is why a good Christian and a good Jew or arguing with each other instead of with all the lost Christians and Jews here at TTA turned atheist?

Thanks!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-10-2015, 09:41 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-10-2015 03:58 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 03:18 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm trying to figure out why this information doesn't ENRAGE Christians, when they learn it.

What honest person can stare right in the face of a clear, obvious, and deliberate mistranslation of the book of Isaiah in order to make it fit a story about Jesus, and not come to the immediate thought, "Oh shit, the writers of the Christian Bible changed the Bible to make it fit!!!"

There is no honest way to make "almah" into "betulah", or to think that the words are interchangeable, given that Isaiah uses both words (betulah is used seven times; almah only once, in 7:14) and it's clear from other OT verses that almah can actually refer to a whore, while betulah never can.

Unless you have as poor a grasp on Hebrew as the NT writers obviously did, and you're not willing to listen to actual Israeli scholars tell you the reality of the language and how it was used properly (or not), you cannot come to any other honest conclusion but "they changed the Bible to make it fit!!!"

Actually, it does enrage a good number of them. In the last few years, our synagogues and online sites have been flooded with Christians who want to hear what we have to say. In all my life, I never thought I would witness something like this, because all I've ever been told is that Christians think we're stupid, that we don't read our own scriptures, and that they replaced us theologically, so there would be no reason to seek the Jew's opinion of our scripture anyway.

We don't advertise (we wouldn't anyway), and we're not trying to get them to convert to Judaism. They are coming to us of their own accord, and all we're doing is answering the questions. I've seen more Christians walk away from Christianity in the last few years than I've ever seen Jews going to Jews for Jesus in my entire life.

Allow me to respectfully disagree.

Jewish people are fabulously intelligent, leading in most every single intellectual and otherwise endeavor worldwide from science to the arts and in-between.

Christians have in NO way replaced corporate, racial or national Israel. Period. Most mistakes made in NT interpretation are done misreading clear statements re: Israel and "moving them" to the NT church.

The Jewish opinion of scripture is usually correct, so much so, that in my church culture, all Messianic Jews are known as intense and fabulous expositors.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-10-2015, 08:27 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... The Jewish opinion of scripture is usually correct ...

Leave aside that opinions are neither correct nor incorrect, which is why they are called opinions, by what standard would anyone ascertain the "correctness" of a position held about "scripture". It's a linguistic impossibility, and the forever increasing divisiveness of sectarian interpretation proves it's impossible.
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28-10-2015, 08:33 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 08:27 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... The Jewish opinion of scripture is usually correct ...

Leave aside that opinions are neither correct nor incorrect, which is why they are called opinions, by what standard would anyone ascertain the "correctness" of a position held about "scripture". It's a linguistic impossibility, and the forever increasing divisiveness of sectarian interpretation proves it's impossible.

Well, there are certain things that you can say are present or are not present in the text. I may not be able to argue that the text was written by G-d, but I can certainly point to the text and identify what words are actually formed.

Go back a few posts and take a look at the examples that I posted where the word "virgin" appears in the text. You can see for yourself what Hebrew word consistently matches the English word "virgin". Why doesn't the word match in Isaiah 7:14? -These are the types of arguments that we're having when we say discrepancies in the text or mistranslations.
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