Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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28-10-2015, 08:42 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... A virgin giving birth is a sign ...

A sign of what?

If a mother-to-be emerged today able to prove her pregnancy occurred sans sex (yet naturally, without the aid of a turkey baster) she would be a scientific sensation, subjected to as much study as she would allow and the basis for a lot of scientific discourse, with a lot of biologists excited about the new depths of understanding this aberration would add to the fund of all human knowledge.

None but the ignorant would take it as a "sign", and only the fanatically ignorant stupid enough to presume it a "sign" of something in particular.
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29-10-2015, 04:43 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 03:58 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Actually, it does enrage a good number of them. In the last few years, our synagogues and online sites have been flooded with Christians who want to hear what we have to say. In all my life, I never thought I would witness something like this, because all I've ever been told is that Christians think we're stupid, that we don't read our own scriptures, and that they replaced us theologically, so there would be no reason to seek the Jew's opinion of our scripture anyway.

We don't advertise (we wouldn't anyway), and we're not trying to get them to convert to Judaism. They are coming to us of their own accord, and all we're doing is answering the questions. I've seen more Christians walk away from Christianity in the last few years than I've ever seen Jews going to Jews for Jesus in my entire life.

Allow me to respectfully disagree.

Jewish people are fabulously intelligent, leading in most every single intellectual and otherwise endeavor worldwide from science to the arts and in-between.

Christians have in NO way replaced corporate, racial or national Israel. Period. Most mistakes made in NT interpretation are done misreading clear statements re: Israel and "moving them" to the NT church.

The Jewish opinion of scripture is usually correct, so much so, that in my church culture, all Messianic Jews are known as intense and fabulous expositors.

"Christians have in NO way replaced corporate, racial or national Israel."

Although Christian Germany tried hard to do so in the holocaust. Sleepy
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29-10-2015, 04:47 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-10-2015 02:45 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Oh, Q! It looks like you've got a little mistranslation on your scripture there. Here, I've got some club soda. Let me get that for you.

17) For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, they are at my hands and feet.

This isn't prophecy. It's a story about David's enemies. It's a present tense kind of thing, not about the future.

Of course we may differ:

This verse, which is Psalm 22:17 in the Hebrew verse numbering, reads in the Masoretic Text as: כארי ידי ורגלי, which may be read literally as "like a lion my hands and my feet". The full verse of the Masoretic text reads: כי סבבוני כלבים עדת מרעים הקיפוני כארי ידי ורגלי׃

When translated into English, the syntactical form of this Hebrew phrase appears to be lacking a verb, as verbs are commonly omitted in the Hebrew present tense and otherwise inferred through context. In this context the phrase was commonly explained in early Rabbinical paraphrases as "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet".

The Septuagint, a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας ("they have dug my hands and feet"), which Christian commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as "pierced".

Aquila of Sinope, a 2nd-century CE Greek convert to Christianity and later to Judaism, undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet".

The Jewish Publication Society translates the phrase a "Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet".

**

It's a free country. I guess your problem is since you say it isn't prophecy but a discourse on David--you'd first need to show an example from David's life where Psalm 22 actually happened. When did this happen to David, for one example from this and a HOST of other Psalms?

All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Again, this happened to Jesus Christ. The THEY is Gentiles, when did Gentiles gamble over David's singular garment?

I suppose I can provide approximately 500 similar verses describing the ministry of Y'Shua in prophecy--but my underlying question is why a good Christian and a good Jew or arguing with each other instead of with all the lost Christians and Jews here at TTA turned atheist?

Thanks!

but my underlying question is why a good Christian and a good Jew or arguing with each other instead of with all the lost Christians and Jews here at TTA turned atheist?

Could be because empire building is so old fashioned.
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29-10-2015, 07:20 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(29-10-2015 04:47 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course we may differ:

This verse, which is Psalm 22:17 in the Hebrew verse numbering, reads in the Masoretic Text as: כארי ידי ורגלי, which may be read literally as "like a lion my hands and my feet". The full verse of the Masoretic text reads: כי סבבוני כלבים עדת מרעים הקיפוני כארי ידי ורגלי׃

When translated into English, the syntactical form of this Hebrew phrase appears to be lacking a verb, as verbs are commonly omitted in the Hebrew present tense and otherwise inferred through context. In this context the phrase was commonly explained in early Rabbinical paraphrases as "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet".

The Septuagint, a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας ("they have dug my hands and feet"), which Christian commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as "pierced".

Aquila of Sinope, a 2nd-century CE Greek convert to Christianity and later to Judaism, undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet".

The Jewish Publication Society translates the phrase a "Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet".

**

It's a free country. I guess your problem is since you say it isn't prophecy but a discourse on David--you'd first need to show an example from David's life where Psalm 22 actually happened. When did this happen to David, for one example from this and a HOST of other Psalms?

All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Again, this happened to Jesus Christ. The THEY is Gentiles, when did Gentiles gamble over David's singular garment?

I suppose I can provide approximately 500 similar verses describing the ministry of Y'Shua in prophecy--but my underlying question is why a good Christian and a good Jew or arguing with each other instead of with all the lost Christians and Jews here at TTA turned atheist?

Thanks!

but my underlying question is why a good Christian and a good Jew or arguing with each other instead of with all the lost Christians and Jews here at TTA turned atheist?

Could be because empire building is so old fashioned.

I guess the question that I have, is why would I feel the need to change the people on this forum? What's wrong with them? They're not broken. They seem like nice folks to me.

I think I kind of like them!
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29-10-2015, 09:40 AM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2015 11:00 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:32 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So please tell us--just what--exactly, precisely, specifically, was THE important element in Hebrew sacrifice? Because even secular students of history understand the shed blood of Jesus Christ was prefigured in the shed blood of the Temple/Tabernacle sacrifices. Please, enlighten us. And please, stand behind your general statements like "it was just one of a multifaceted retinue of things..."

THAT is completely hysterical, Q boy. REFERENCES REQUIRED. There is no source of SECULAR history that even begins to talk about "prefiguring" ANYTHING, and you can't name 2 "secular scholars" that write about that. You're just outright LYING. That is a FAITH statement, and an ignorant incorrect one at that. You are SO bound up in your ignorant fundie delusion of "prophecy" you can't see straight. "Prefiguring" is the same as omen reading, and the same as your ignorant notion of the role of a prophet. The Hebrews sacrificed all kinds of things. Animals AND plants (harvested). They can't possibly "prefigure" your Jebus, as : a) most Jews AT THE TIME of the prophetic utterances, and the blood sacrifices were not expecting a messiah, and b.) your Jebus did not accomplish the role of a messiah. The PROOF of that, is that even AFTER Jesus of Nazareth (IF he really existed) those that were looking for one, STILL expected one, and some thought Simon bar Kochba WAS the messiah. At least he started to get something done. You are INCOMPETENT to even begin discussing the Bible.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2015, 10:42 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Quote:
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Again, this happened to Jesus Christ.

It happened to a whole lot of other people too.
There are just as many things that could be said NOT to have happened there were supposed to have happened. There is no reason to even begin to place Jesus of Nazareth in a group of possible messiah figures. He never got the job done. He didn't "usher in" a messianic age.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2015, 12:32 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
I'm still amazed they can, with a straight face, say that an idiom about lions being all around you, biting at your hands and feet (or piercing, if you prefer), can POSSIBLY be translated into "the Romans will put nails into me so I stick to a board".

I'm still amazed they can, with a straight face, tell me that the Isaiah 7 verse predicts the messiah will be born of a virgin, even though it doesn't actually say that at all, is correct because a virgin birth is a better sign (to King Ahaz?) than a special child born to a regular woman.

Truly, I cannot understand. It's staring them in the face. And they call us the blind ones!

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-10-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No. A virgin giving birth is a sign, a young woman is called "a daily occurrence" regardless of whether you are looking at the Ahaz fulfillment or Jesus Christ.

Q,

When the prophecy was first given by Isaiah to King Ahaz, was he talking only about the current situation facing Ahaz or only about the future birth of Christ or both?

Doc
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29-10-2015, 01:38 PM (This post was last modified: 29-10-2015 03:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
AT THAT TIME, one of Ahaz's wives, being found with child WAS THE SIGN of which Isaiah spoke, TO THE KING at that time. It was a sign at that time, that the floundering military campain would succeed in the end. It had nothing to do with the far future. Q is a charlatan and a fraud.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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29-10-2015, 01:42 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Bucky,
Actually, I think Isaiah was referring to his own son, Mahar-Shalal-Hash-Baz, born to his second wife.

I still want to know who and to what event Isaiah was referring to when he gave the prophecy, according to Q.

Doc
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