Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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30-10-2015, 12:59 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(29-10-2015 10:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
Quote:
All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Again, this happened to Jesus Christ.

It happened to a whole lot of other people too.
There are just as many things that could be said NOT to have happened there were supposed to have happened. There is no reason to even begin to place Jesus of Nazareth in a group of possible messiah figures. He never got the job done. He didn't "usher in" a messianic age.

Really? You do know my point wasn't that it happened to Jesus--it was that it NEVER happened to King David and is a prophecy. Stop obfuscating the truth and address questions of fact.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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30-10-2015, 01:03 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(29-10-2015 03:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 01:42 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Bucky,
Actually, I think Isaiah was referring to his own son, Mahar-Shalal-Hash-Baz, born to his second wife.

I still want to know who and to what event Isaiah was referring to when he gave the prophecy, according to Q.

Doc

"Ask a sign from the Lord your God, from lowest Sheol or from highest heaven." 7:12 יב וַיֹּאמֶר, אָחָז: לֹא-אֶשְׁאַל וְלֹא-אֲנַסֶּה, אֶת-יְהוָה. But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not test the Lord." 7:13 יג וַיֹּאמֶר, שִׁמְעוּ-נָא בֵּית דָּוִד: הַמְעַט מִכֶּם הַלְאוֹת אֲנָשִׁים, כִּי תַלְאוּ גַּם אֶת-אֱלֹהָי. Then he retorted: "Listen, house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you also try the patience of my God? 7:14 יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל. therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: a young woman IS pregnant, and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel. 7:15 טו חֶמְאָה וּדְבַשׁ, יֹאכֵל--לְדַעְתּוֹ מָאוֹס בָּרָע, וּבָחוֹר בַּטּוֹב. By the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good, he will be eating curds and honey. 7:16 טז כִּי בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, מָאֹס בָּרָע--וּבָחֹר בַּטּוֹב: תֵּעָזֵב הָאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה קָץ, מִפְּנֵי שְׁנֵי מְלָכֶיהָ. For before the child knows to reject the bad and choose the good, desolation will come upon the land of the two kings before whom you NOW cower."

There is no question. The child THEN was the sign Isiah was talking about, and Ahaz was being exorted to keep up the fight AT THAT TIME. The words of Isaiah had NOTHING to do with a far future time. Ahaz was being given advice FOR HIS OWN TIME, and the child (Emmanu-el) was that sign. It has nothing to do with a messiah, (and Mary never named him Emmanuel for that matter).

I see. The miracle sign was this:

1) Go to that pregnant woman--whichever one she is--and she will call the child Immanuel.

2) Oh, before God forgets to tell you--don't let her know the prophecy--she'll just name the child Immanuel as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy (God says BB will use the term "self-fulfilling prophecy) millennia from now to insult Christian beliefs.

PS. BB--tell us all what IMMANUEL TRANSLATES TO. Drinking Beverage

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30-10-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Umm.. Q, you want to answer my question?
Doc
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30-10-2015, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2015 10:56 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-10-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 03:31 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  "Ask a sign from the Lord your God, from lowest Sheol or from highest heaven." 7:12 יב וַיֹּאמֶר, אָחָז: לֹא-אֶשְׁאַל וְלֹא-אֲנַסֶּה, אֶת-יְהוָה. But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, and I will not test the Lord." 7:13 יג וַיֹּאמֶר, שִׁמְעוּ-נָא בֵּית דָּוִד: הַמְעַט מִכֶּם הַלְאוֹת אֲנָשִׁים, כִּי תַלְאוּ גַּם אֶת-אֱלֹהָי. Then he retorted: "Listen, house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you also try the patience of my God? 7:14 יד לָכֵן יִתֵּן אֲדֹנָי הוּא, לָכֶם--אוֹת: הִנֵּה הָעַלְמָה, הָרָה וְיֹלֶדֶת בֵּן, וְקָרָאת שְׁמוֹ, עִמָּנוּ אֵל. therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: a young woman IS pregnant, and she will bear a son, and will call his name Immanuel. 7:15 טו חֶמְאָה וּדְבַשׁ, יֹאכֵל--לְדַעְתּוֹ מָאוֹס בָּרָע, וּבָחוֹר בַּטּוֹב. By the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good, he will be eating curds and honey. 7:16 טז כִּי בְּטֶרֶם יֵדַע הַנַּעַר, מָאֹס בָּרָע--וּבָחֹר בַּטּוֹב: תֵּעָזֵב הָאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה קָץ, מִפְּנֵי שְׁנֵי מְלָכֶיהָ. For before the child knows to reject the bad and choose the good, desolation will come upon the land of the two kings before whom you NOW cower."

There is no question. The child THEN was the sign Isiah was talking about, and Ahaz was being exorted to keep up the fight AT THAT TIME. The words of Isaiah had NOTHING to do with a far future time. Ahaz was being given advice FOR HIS OWN TIME, and the child (Emmanu-el) was that sign. It has nothing to do with a messiah, (and Mary never named him Emmanuel for that matter).

I see. The miracle sign was this:

1) Go to that pregnant woman--whichever one she is--and she will call the child Immanuel.

2) Oh, before God forgets to tell you--don't let her know the prophecy--she'll just name the child Immanuel as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy (God says BB will use the term "self-fulfilling prophecy) millennia from now to insult Christian beliefs.

PS. BB--tell us all what IMMANUEL TRANSLATES TO. Drinking Beverage

Wrong again Q. There was no "miracle sign". A "Biblical miracle" is a TOTALLY natural occurance in which a believer *sees the hand of god operating*. As I said, you need to take Biible Studies 101.

1. Except she never did, and you know it. There is nowhere recorded that Mary called Jesus "Emmanu-el" (god is with us), nor did anyone else at the time.

2. She NEVER named him that, so your point is utterly irrelevant.

"Christian beliefs" are not insulted. Just ignorant fundamentalist errors are pointed out. It is who are ignorant of scripture and what the role of a prophet was, and how that changed in Hebrew history. It is really YOU literal fundie nonsense that is insulting to the texts you misuse, and are ignorant of.
Tongue
If you find it "insulting" to have your ignorant GRAVE, totally inept, errors and misinterpretations in your use and readings of ancient literature, you are only to be pitied.

"It was common in Jewish writing of the time to reinterpret the scriptures in order to signify a new meaning. (Get it. A NEW meaning. Not the "original" meaning.)
This is what Matthew must have done with Isaiah 7:14: the Hebrew has the child being given the name Immanuel by (presumably) his mother, while Matthew's version has "they" (the house of David) call him Emmanuel. The change to "they" allows Matthew to have Joseph give the name "Jesus" to the child, thus signaling the God-born Messiah's formal adoption into the house of David, while at the same time he is "Immanuel", God with us, the Son of God." Dr. L. Michael White, (Christian Biblical scholar), Ronald Nelson Smith Chair in Classics and Christian Origins, and director of the Institute for the Study of Antiquity and Christian Origins, at the University of Texas at Austin, and author of " Scripting Jesus: The Gospels in Rewrite. HarperCollins 2010.

You Q, have not a clue what you're on about. How about nothing more from you without an accompanying reference ? K ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-11-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The Septuagint, a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας ("they have dug my hands and feet"), which Christian commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as "pierced". [Regarding Psalm 22]

Aquila of Sinope, a 2nd-century CE Greek convert to Christianity and later to Judaism, undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet".

Before I address the Psalm itself, I first want to talk about the Septuagint.

The Hebrew Bible was a book written for Jewish people, and it was never intended to be released to the Gentile world. Frankly, it’s a book that speaks very disparagingly about us and was intended for internal purposes only. King Ptolemy wanted to get his hands on a copy of the Torah. For official purposes, we recognize that his intentions were to service the needs of the Greek-speaking Jews in his empire, but Jewish tradition says that his intentions were for him to review the Torah for any secrets or magic spells in there. He wondered what it was about their holy text that made the Jews refuse to let go of it in spite of the perfectly good national religion that his empire had to offer. Basically, he was curious!

So the king had 72 rabbis kidnapped and locked into 72 different rooms. They were told to translate the Torah, and if there was a discrepancy between any of the copies, then they would be killed and the Jewish communities would be destroyed.

When they finished, each copy was perfectly identical. The Jewish people recognized this event as a tragedy because they knew the Gentile world would misunderstand the extreme self-critical language in the text (and sure enough, they did.)

I have no idea why you would reference the Septuagint in this case because as a secularly educated scholar in related subjects, you must be aware that the original Septuagint only consisted of the first five books of Moses. The Psalms were not included in the original Septuagint. You must also be aware that there exists no copy of the original Septuagint today to use for comparison, and you’re thirdly likely aware that the current version of the “Septuagint” is a later document that the Jews do not recognize as being of valid Jewish origin.

The only reason that you would bring the Septuagint up at all is if you were taking a gamble with my level of knowledge or if you're unaware of how the Septuagint is viewed in the Jewish community. Not sure if I should feel offended or surprised.

The Septuagint has nothing to do with Psalms and it has nothing to do with Judaism. It’s simply not a shared document between us.
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01-11-2015, 09:01 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(29-10-2015 12:40 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No. A virgin giving birth is a sign, a young woman is called "a daily occurrence" regardless of whether you are looking at the Ahaz fulfillment or Jesus Christ.

Q,

When the prophecy was first given by Isaiah to King Ahaz, was he talking only about the current situation facing Ahaz or only about the future birth of Christ or both?

Doc

Bump. Inquiring minds want to know Q.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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01-11-2015, 09:44 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-10-2015 03:36 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Umm.. Q, you want to answer my question?
Doc

Apparently not. Must not jibe with his agenda.

#sigh
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01-11-2015, 12:58 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  [Regarding Psalm 22] Of course we may differ:

This verse, which is Psalm 22:17 in the Hebrew verse numbering, reads in the Masoretic Text as: כארי ידי ורגלי, which may be read literally as "like a lion my hands and my feet". The full verse of the Masoretic text reads: כי סבבוני כלבים עדת מרעים הקיפוני כארי ידי ורגלי׃

When translated into English, the syntactical form of this Hebrew phrase appears to be lacking a verb, as verbs are commonly omitted in the Hebrew present tense and otherwise inferred through context. In this context the phrase was commonly explained in early Rabbinical paraphrases as "they bite like a lion my hands and my feet".

The Septuagint, a Jewish translation of the Hebrew Bible into Koine Greek made before the Common Era, has ωρυξαν χειράς μου και πόδας ("they have dug my hands and feet"), which Christian commentators argue could be understood in the general sense as "pierced".

Aquila of Sinope, a 2nd-century CE Greek convert to Christianity and later to Judaism, undertook two translations of the Psalms from Hebrew to Greek. In the first, he renders the verse "they disfigured my hands and feet"; in the second he revised this to "they have bound my hands and feet".

The Jewish Publication Society translates the phrase a "Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet".

I'd really like to take a closer look at this psalm. The Christians insist that it reads "pierced", but I can not find a shred of evidence to support that claim.

Below is a sampling of instances where I found "lion" or "like a lion" in the Hebrew scriptures. I clipped verses from a free, online site that is produced by Christians, and I just boxed the relevant words. Note that some examples end with an extra letter. (In English, "rose" and "roses" are speaking about a specific, scented flower that has thorns.) Why is it that "like a lion" is the same word everywhere in the scriptures, and translated correctly into English, but in this one section in Psalm 22, Christians think it says "pierced"?

I'd be curious to see what the TTA users think of this.

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01-11-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-11-2015 12:58 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ...
I'd be curious to see what the TTA users think of this.
...

Could it be that the KJV authors had an agenda?

Nooooo! Say it's not so.

Colour me surprised.

Next?

Drinking Beverage

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01-11-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-10-2015 03:36 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Umm.. Q, you want to answer my question?
Doc
I wish you luck.
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