Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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01-11-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-11-2015 09:01 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 12:40 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Q,

When the prophecy was first given by Isaiah to King Ahaz, was he talking only about the current situation facing Ahaz or only about the future birth of Christ or both?

Doc

Bump. Inquiring minds want to know Q.

Q (PleaseJebusTrollJoke) doesn't "work weekends'. It's a well established pattern.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-11-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I suppose I can provide approximately 500 similar verses describing the ministry of Y'Shua in prophecy.

Yes, I know you can. Likewise, I can refute approximately 500 verses that have been mistranslated or taken out of context.

(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's a free country. I guess your problem is since you say it isn't prophecy but a discourse on David--you'd first need to show an example from David's life where Psalm 22 actually happened. When did this happen to David, for one example from this and a HOST of other Psalms?

All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Again, this happened to Jesus Christ. The THEY is Gentiles, when did Gentiles gamble over David's singular garment?

Psalm 22 is about David. The title of the psalm even says, “A song of David.” This is not a messianic prophecy, and in fact, this isn't a prophecy of any nature. It is a historical account of David's life at a time when he was being pursued by his enemies. It’s about David!

I'll use your translation:
All my bones are on display; <--- David is starving. He's hiding out from his enemies, struggling to survive, so his bones are sticking out from malnutrition.
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.<--- David is making an analogy for the crown and king's robes that his enemies want to take from him. They want to divide up his empire.

"The view that is the most consistent with the plain reading of this psalm holds that it is David’s own personal story, in which he describes his own pain, anguish, and longing during those times when he was a fugitive from his enemies, believing that, at times, God had not heeded his pleas for intervention.

He pleads with God to come to his aid since his persecutors are relentlessly pursuing him in their zeal to dispossess him of his kingdom and mantle of royalty. He uses animal motifs of lions, dogs, and bulls/bison, to describe his adversaries, which he also employs on other occasions (e.g., Psalms 17:11,12, 35:17, 59:2-7,15)."

Link to quote above.

You have apparently not considered this possibility, so I guess I’m introducing a brand new idea here, but isn’t it possible that NT writers flipped through the Hebrew Scriptures, found a few things that they liked, and wrote the Jesus story to match the scriptures that they found? Where is your evidence that this happened to Jesus?

It isn't a prophecy if it wasn't fulfilled in front of everyone.
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02-11-2015, 12:55 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(29-10-2015 12:40 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No. A virgin giving birth is a sign, a young woman is called "a daily occurrence" regardless of whether you are looking at the Ahaz fulfillment or Jesus Christ.

Q,

When the prophecy was first given by Isaiah to King Ahaz, was he talking only about the current situation facing Ahaz or only about the future birth of Christ or both?

Doc


OK. it doesn't look like Q is going to answer my question, but looking at his quote above, he clearly believes that the "virgin" prophecy was given to address the situation facing King Ahaz and to predict the virgin birth of Jesus.

If that is the case, then who was the virgin who gave birth to a baby boy in King Ahaz's time? And how did she do it? Was she impregnated by the Holy Spirit too? That would mean that Jesus was not the first virgin born human. He had a predecessor in the virgin-born line. Was the earlier child divine as well?

Doc
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02-11-2015, 01:44 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-10-2015 03:36 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Umm.. Q, you want to answer my question?
Doc

Please repost/rephrase for me. I'd be delighted to try to answer you.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-11-2015, 01:46 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-10-2015 05:07 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(30-10-2015 01:03 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I see. The miracle sign was this:

1) Go to that pregnant woman--whichever one she is--and she will call the child Immanuel.

2) Oh, before God forgets to tell you--don't let her know the prophecy--she'll just name the child Immanuel as a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy (God says BB will use the term "self-fulfilling prophecy) millennia from now to insult Christian beliefs.

PS. BB--tell us all what IMMANUEL TRANSLATES TO. Drinking Beverage

Wrong again Q. There was no "miracle sign". A "Biblical miracle" is a TOTALLY natural occurance in which a believer *sees the hand of god operating*. As I said, you need to take Biible Studies 101.

1. Except she never did, and you know it. There is nowhere recorded that Mary called Jesus "Emmanu-el" (god is with us), nor did anyone else at the time.

2. She NEVER named him that, so your point is utterly irrelevant.

"Christian beliefs" are not insulted. Just ignorant fundamentalist errors are pointed out. It is who are ignorant of scripture and what the role of a prophet was, and how that changed in Hebrew history. It is really YOU literal fundie nonsense that is insulting to the texts you misuse, and are ignorant of.
Tongue
If you find it "insulting" to have your ignorant GRAVE, totally inept, errors and misinterpretations in your use and readings of ancient literature, you are only to be pitied.

"It was common in Jewish writing of the time to reinterpret the scriptures in order to signify a new meaning. (Get it. A NEW meaning. Not the "original" meaning.)
This is what Matthew must have done with Isaiah 7:14: the Hebrew has the child being given the name Immanuel by (presumably) his mother, while Matthew's version has "they" (the house of David) call him Emmanuel. The change to "they" allows Matthew to have Joseph give the name "Jesus" to the child, thus signaling the God-born Messiah's formal adoption into the house of David, while at the same time he is "Immanuel", God with us, the Son of God." Dr. L. Michael White, (Christian Biblical scholar), Ronald Nelson Smith Chair in Classics and Christian Origins, and director of the Institute for the Study of Antiquity and Christian Origins, at the University of Texas at Austin, and author of " Scripting Jesus: The Gospels in Rewrite. HarperCollins 2010.

You Q, have not a clue what you're on about. How about nothing more from you without an accompanying reference ? K ?

You are again obfuscating. Either that or because of your great bitterness and anger you simply disagree with everything I say regardless of whether you comprehend it. I was responding to the statement that the "sign" was a pregnant woman's child would be named Immanuel when:

1. That isn't a sign--and before you tell us all what a sign is or isn't, check in with your colleagues, because they know very well the OT presents MIRACLE signs.

2. I was being facetious--a prophecy recorded publicly in scripture to name a child Immanuel would become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

3. You neglected to respond to my point that Immanuel means GOD WITH US--a sign of the Christ, Jesus. You are wrong regarding Isaiah 7:14.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-11-2015, 01:49 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-11-2015 09:01 AM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 12:40 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Q,

When the prophecy was first given by Isaiah to King Ahaz, was he talking only about the current situation facing Ahaz or only about the future birth of Christ or both?

Doc

Bump. Inquiring minds want to know Q.

Ah, here it is. I see it! Thanks for the bump.

Most Bible scholars recognize that numerous prophecies have double fulfillments, then and now, both testaments. For example, God said Israel would twice be birthed as a nation in a day--this did happen, once at the Exodus--slavery to a nation--once in 1948--recognized with a land grant.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-11-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-11-2015 04:32 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I suppose I can provide approximately 500 similar verses describing the ministry of Y'Shua in prophecy.

Yes, I know you can. Likewise, I can refute approximately 500 verses that have been mistranslated or taken out of context.

(28-10-2015 09:38 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It's a free country. I guess your problem is since you say it isn't prophecy but a discourse on David--you'd first need to show an example from David's life where Psalm 22 actually happened. When did this happen to David, for one example from this and a HOST of other Psalms?

All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.

Again, this happened to Jesus Christ. The THEY is Gentiles, when did Gentiles gamble over David's singular garment?

Psalm 22 is about David. The title of the psalm even says, “A song of David.” This is not a messianic prophecy, and in fact, this isn't a prophecy of any nature. It is a historical account of David's life at a time when he was being pursued by his enemies. It’s about David!

I'll use your translation:
All my bones are on display; <--- David is starving. He's hiding out from his enemies, struggling to survive, so his bones are sticking out from malnutrition.
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.<--- David is making an analogy for the crown and king's robes that his enemies want to take from him. They want to divide up his empire.

"The view that is the most consistent with the plain reading of this psalm holds that it is David’s own personal story, in which he describes his own pain, anguish, and longing during those times when he was a fugitive from his enemies, believing that, at times, God had not heeded his pleas for intervention.

He pleads with God to come to his aid since his persecutors are relentlessly pursuing him in their zeal to dispossess him of his kingdom and mantle of royalty. He uses animal motifs of lions, dogs, and bulls/bison, to describe his adversaries, which he also employs on other occasions (e.g., Psalms 17:11,12, 35:17, 59:2-7,15)."

Link to quote above.

You have apparently not considered this possibility, so I guess I’m introducing a brand new idea here, but isn’t it possible that NT writers flipped through the Hebrew Scriptures, found a few things that they liked, and wrote the Jesus story to match the scriptures that they found? Where is your evidence that this happened to Jesus?

It isn't a prophecy if it wasn't fulfilled in front of everyone.

Sorry. Do you have a citation where David starved and his bones stuck out from malnutrition? And who was it who wanted to divide David's empire? The empire divided in the time of Rehoboam, King David's grandson. But not in David's time nor was there any consideration of a divide in his time that I can recall.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-11-2015, 01:55 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 12:55 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(29-10-2015 12:40 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Q,

When the prophecy was first given by Isaiah to King Ahaz, was he talking only about the current situation facing Ahaz or only about the future birth of Christ or both?

Doc


OK. it doesn't look like Q is going to answer my question, but looking at his quote above, he clearly believes that the "virgin" prophecy was given to address the situation facing King Ahaz and to predict the virgin birth of Jesus.

If that is the case, then who was the virgin who gave birth to a baby boy in King Ahaz's time? And how did she do it? Was she impregnated by the Holy Spirit too? That would mean that Jesus was not the first virgin born human. He had a predecessor in the virgin-born line. Was the earlier child divine as well?

Doc

There are several possibilities--I like your question, very thoughtful.

1. There were two virgin births (the child need not be divine).

2. The verse is parsed--there are numerous other OT prophecies describing events disparate in time--remember that the Hebrew writings aren't all of necessity chronological in intent or description--the Greek gospels are this way also. Most scholars think Luke is chronological and Mark and Matthew are ordered differently by design.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-11-2015, 02:26 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
I have to agree with the title of this thread. If discussions like this are what his death has resulted in then it was worse than pointless.

What is truly incredible is that some people throw words around like "Jew", "Hebrew" and "Israelite" as though all of this makes sense. "Jew" comes from "Yahoo" which essentially means a "monotheist". "Hebrew" comes from "iberu" which comes from "niberu" which denotes people from Sumeria. "Israelite" means someone who "wrestles with god".

You can't say with any certainty who wrote what, what of it is true, whose legends, myths, history, imagination any of this tihs represents. It was all rewritten, reworked, embellished, changed, faked, poked and prodded by a bunch of ancient nerds and liars who were paid to do this thousands of years ago for god knows what reasons.

You can spin it any way you want but it doesn't make any of it worth a pinch of tihs.

Was Jesus' sacrifice pointless? Who knows? But it was a lot less pointless than this thread.
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02-11-2015, 02:49 PM (This post was last modified: 02-11-2015 09:25 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 01:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are again obfuscating.

And you provided no references, and I am wrong about nothing. Isaiah 7:14 does not exist in a vacuum. You fail to read it's context.
You need to look up that word, (obfuscation). It's not what I'm doing. I'm simply telling you, (and I am neither bitter, nor angry, you old troll ... typical ignorant judgmental church-lady fundie response on being challenged to provide references or proofs). You are dead wrong about prophecy in general, and this one inparticular, as was point out above in he COMPLETE quote of the advice by Isaiah to Ahaz about his PRESENT predicament. I do disagree with almost all the BS you come out with. It's all based on ignorance of scripture and real scholarship.

Quote:Most Bible scholars recognize that numerous prophecies have double fulfillments, then and now, both testaments.

No they don't. Most scholars don't even talk in those terms. Let's see the proof, and your poll of scholars. *As if* you would have any way of knowing.

Signs are "interpretations" of natural events, NOT "miracles". Nonbelievers would see the same event, and notice nothing. The fact that you learned OT from ignorant Fundamentalists, is not my problem. I took Bible 101 from a PhD visiting chairman from Forham, (a priest). HE is the one who first introduced the concept of how erroneously you fundies use "prophesy" to me (and the class). . I don't need to check with anyone. You need to take Bible 101, from a real scholar at a reputable institution.

I did say Emmauel means "god is with us", and it didn't have ANYTHING to do with Jebus, as Aliza has educated you on. THAT is YOUR erroneous/false/mistaken belief/interpretation, because you have no clue what the role of a prophet was in that culture. It (the sign of the young women being found with child) meant that Yahweh was with AHAZ and the people of the time. I'm wrong about nothing. You, however, are wrong just about all the time. It's not about anger. It's about YOU and your ignorance.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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