Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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02-11-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 02:26 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I have to agree with the title of this thread. If discussions like this are what his death has resulted in then it was worse than pointless.

What is truly incredible is that some people throw words around like "Jew", "Hebrew" and "Israelite" as though all of this makes sense. "Jew" comes from "Yahoo" which essentially means a "monotheist". "Hebrew" comes from "iberu" which comes from "niberu" which denotes people from Sumeria. "Israelite" means someone who "wrestles with god".

You can't say with any certainty who wrote what, what of it is true, whose legends, myths, history, imagination any of this tihs represents. It was all rewritten, reworked, embellished, changed, faked, poked and prodded by a bunch of ancient nerds and liars who were paid to do this thousands of years ago for god knows what reasons.

You can spin it any way you want but it doesn't make any of it worth a pinch of tihs.

Was Jesus' sacrifice pointless? Who knows? But it was a lot less pointless than this thread.

As IF anyone is forcing the Dot-Connector to participate in this thread. Feel free to butt out, Mr. Dot Connector.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-11-2015, 02:59 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 01:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 12:55 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  OK. it doesn't look like Q is going to answer my question, but looking at his quote above, he clearly believes that the "virgin" prophecy was given to address the situation facing King Ahaz and to predict the virgin birth of Jesus.

If that is the case, then who was the virgin who gave birth to a baby boy in King Ahaz's time? And how did she do it? Was she impregnated by the Holy Spirit too? That would mean that Jesus was not the first virgin born human. He had a predecessor in the virgin-born line. Was the earlier child divine as well?

Doc

There are several possibilities--I like your question, very thoughtful.

1. There were two virgin births (the child need not be divine).

2. The verse is parsed--there are numerous other OT prophecies describing events disparate in time--remember that the Hebrew writings aren't all of necessity chronological in intent or description--the Greek gospels are this way also. Most scholars think Luke is chronological and Mark and Matthew are ordered differently by design.

Thanks.

I see. Two virgin births. One divine. One not-so-divine. What's the difference between the two?

Doc
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02-11-2015, 03:05 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 02:59 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 01:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are several possibilities--I like your question, very thoughtful.

1. There were two virgin births (the child need not be divine).

2. The verse is parsed--there are numerous other OT prophecies describing events disparate in time--remember that the Hebrew writings aren't all of necessity chronological in intent or description--the Greek gospels are this way also. Most scholars think Luke is chronological and Mark and Matthew are ordered differently by design.

Thanks.

I see. Two virgin births. One divine. One not-so-divine. What's the difference between the two?

Doc

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02-11-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 01:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 12:55 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  OK. it doesn't look like Q is going to answer my question, but looking at his quote above, he clearly believes that the "virgin" prophecy was given to address the situation facing King Ahaz and to predict the virgin birth of Jesus.

If that is the case, then who was the virgin who gave birth to a baby boy in King Ahaz's time? And how did she do it? Was she impregnated by the Holy Spirit too? That would mean that Jesus was not the first virgin born human. He had a predecessor in the virgin-born line. Was the earlier child divine as well?

Doc

There are several possibilities--I like your question, very thoughtful.

1. There were two virgin births (the child need not be divine).

2. The verse is parsed--there are numerous other OT prophecies describing events disparate in time--remember that the Hebrew writings aren't all of necessity chronological in intent or description--the Greek gospels are this way also. Most scholars think Luke is chronological and Mark and Matthew are ordered differently by design.

Thanks.

OK. Let's look at the prophecy in detail. Isaiah 7: 14-16 says, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

Who is the "you" in "you dread" if the prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus's time? And which are the lands of the two kings that will be laid waste in Jesus's time?

Doc
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03-11-2015, 11:32 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Q, follow-up question.

Isaiah 7: 14-16 says, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

If this prophecy applies to the birth of Jesus, then was there a time in his life when he did not know right from wrong? And how does that jibe with his divinity?

Doc
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03-11-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 02:26 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I have to agree with the title of this thread. If discussions like this are what his death has resulted in then it was worse than pointless.

What is truly incredible is that some people throw words around like "Jew", "Hebrew" and "Israelite" as though all of this makes sense. "Jew" comes from "Yahoo" which essentially means a "monotheist". "Hebrew" comes from "iberu" which comes from "niberu" which denotes people from Sumeria. "Israelite" means someone who "wrestles with god".

You can't say with any certainty who wrote what, what of it is true, whose legends, myths, history, imagination any of this tihs represents. It was all rewritten, reworked, embellished, changed, faked, poked and prodded by a bunch of ancient nerds and liars who were paid to do this thousands of years ago for god knows what reasons.

You can spin it any way you want but it doesn't make any of it worth a pinch of tihs.

Was Jesus' sacrifice pointless? Who knows? But it was a lot less pointless than this thread.

That's a cop out. Some terms were imposed in hindsight after the scriptures were written. "Israelite" means "one who wrestles with God" but is also the name God gave Jacob. The main reason it's a cop out? Because we absolutely can tell much about what is real and what is unembellished in scripture.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-11-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 02:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 01:46 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are again obfuscating.

And you provided no references, and I am wrong about nothing. Isaiah 7:14 does not exist in a vacuum. You fail to read it's context.
You need to look up that word, (obfuscation). It's not what I'm doing. I'm simply telling you, (and I am neither bitter, nor angry, you old troll ... typical ignorant judgmental church-lady fundie response on being challenged to provide references or proofs). You are dead wrong about prophecy in general, and this one inparticular, as was point out above in he COMPLETE quote of the advice by Isaiah to Ahaz about his PRESENT predicament. I do disagree with almost all the BS you come out with. It's all based on ignorance of scripture and real scholarship.

Quote:Most Bible scholars recognize that numerous prophecies have double fulfillments, then and now, both testaments.

No they don't. Most scholars don't even talk in those terms. Let's see the proof, and your poll of scholars. *As if* you would have any way of knowing.

Signs are "interpretations" of natural events, NOT "miracles". Nonbelievers would see the same event, and notice nothing. The fact that you learned OT from ignorant Fundamentalists, is not my problem. I took Bible 101 from a PhD visiting chairman from Forham, (a priest). HE is the one who first introduced the concept of how erroneously you fundies use "prophesy" to me (and the class). . I don't need to check with anyone. You need to take Bible 101, from a real scholar at a reputable institution.

I did say Emmauel means "god is with us", and it didn't have ANYTHING to do with Jebus, as Aliza has educated you on. THAT is YOUR erroneous/false/mistaken belief/interpretation, because you have no clue what the role of a prophet was in that culture. It (the sign of the young women being found with child) meant that Yahweh was with AHAZ and the people of the time. I'm wrong about nothing. You, however, are wrong just about all the time. It's not about anger. It's about YOU and your ignorance.

Again, if you're not angry, why call me a lady in this thread? You know I'm a father and husband.

Again, if you're not angry (or jealous or vindictive or cruel) why suggest I take courses, when you know I have a BA in Religion from a secular university that taught/teaches JDEP, higher criticism and the Bible as 100% not the Word of God?

PS. Do you have your own BA yet? Shouldn't you earn your degree before criticizing someone who likely matriculated before you were born?

PPS. Bible prophecies are mainly written in the future tense in both testaments. Neither of us need school courses. Both of us need to parse past, present and future. You can do it.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-11-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 02:59 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 01:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are several possibilities--I like your question, very thoughtful.

1. There were two virgin births (the child need not be divine).

2. The verse is parsed--there are numerous other OT prophecies describing events disparate in time--remember that the Hebrew writings aren't all of necessity chronological in intent or description--the Greek gospels are this way also. Most scholars think Luke is chronological and Mark and Matthew are ordered differently by design.

Thanks.

I see. Two virgin births. One divine. One not-so-divine. What's the difference between the two?

Doc

A divinely ordained birth is a miracle. A divine birth is because Jesus was God in human flesh.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-11-2015, 12:25 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 03:38 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 01:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are several possibilities--I like your question, very thoughtful.

1. There were two virgin births (the child need not be divine).

2. The verse is parsed--there are numerous other OT prophecies describing events disparate in time--remember that the Hebrew writings aren't all of necessity chronological in intent or description--the Greek gospels are this way also. Most scholars think Luke is chronological and Mark and Matthew are ordered differently by design.

Thanks.

OK. Let's look at the prophecy in detail. Isaiah 7: 14-16 says, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

Who is the "you" in "you dread" if the prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus's time? And which are the lands of the two kings that will be laid waste in Jesus's time?

Doc

Jesus was divine and always knew wrong from right. The period in the sentence ending in Immanuel is your hint, though it is not punctuated like that in a Hebrew. There are numerous prophecies that parse that way.

To get the sense is very simple. Simply read the sentences but pause a few moments after saying each sentence aloud. The virgin will have a child, Immanuel...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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03-11-2015, 01:29 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-11-2015 12:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 03:38 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  OK. Let's look at the prophecy in detail. Isaiah 7: 14-16 says, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

Who is the "you" in "you dread" if the prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus's time? And which are the lands of the two kings that will be laid waste in Jesus's time?

Doc

Jesus was divine and always knew wrong from right. The period in the sentence ending in Immanuel is your hint, though it is not punctuated like that in a Hebrew. There are numerous prophecies that parse that way.

To get the sense is very simple. Simply read the sentences but pause a few moments after saying each sentence aloud. The virgin will have a child, Immanuel...

Q,
Were you answering my question or someone else's? If mine, then this is the mother of all non-sequiturs.

Doc
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