Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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03-11-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(02-11-2015 01:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 12:55 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  OK. it doesn't look like Q is going to answer my question, but looking at his quote above, he clearly believes that the "virgin" prophecy was given to address the situation facing King Ahaz and to predict the virgin birth of Jesus.

If that is the case, then who was the virgin who gave birth to a baby boy in King Ahaz's time? And how did she do it? Was she impregnated by the Holy Spirit too? That would mean that Jesus was not the first virgin born human. He had a predecessor in the virgin-born line. Was the earlier child divine as well?

There are several possibilities--I like your question, very thoughtful.

1. There were two virgin births (the child need not be divine).

2. The verse is parsed--there are numerous other OT prophecies describing events disparate in time--remember that the Hebrew writings aren't all of necessity chronological in intent or description--the Greek gospels are this way also. Most scholars think Luke is chronological and Mark and Matthew are ordered differently by design.

Thanks.

Q. Folow-up follow-up question.

Matthew 1:20-23 says, "an angel of the Lord appeared to (Joseph) in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

Now, if a virgin already gave birth to a baby boy in Ahaz's time, then this "prophecy" was already fulfilled. Why, then does Matthew say that Jesus was born specifically to fulfill the prophecy?


Doc
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03-11-2015, 06:59 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Q,
Follow-up to the follow-up follow-up question. You say that Isaiah 7 was fulfilled both in Ahaz's and in Jesus's time. I want to quote the entire prophecy and ask you a question. Isaiah 7: 14-20 says, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

In that day the Lord will whistle for flies from the Nile delta in Egypt and for bees from the land of Assyria. They will all come and settle in the steep ravines and in the crevices in the rocks, on all the thornbushes and at all the water holes. In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River—the king of Assyria—to shave your heads and private parts, and to cut off your beards also. (NIV)

Clearly, the above portion represents a single prophecy. Now then, whose heads, private parts and beards were shaved in Jesus's time and who did the shaving? And why is this goldarned portion even in the Bible? Private parts?? What the hell does it all mean? For a more explicit translation look up this portion in the NET Bible.

Doc
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03-11-2015, 07:04 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2015 09:08 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-11-2015 12:22 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, if you're not angry, why call me a lady in this thread? You know I'm a father and husband.

A "church lady". Because you pulled out the old tripe of anyone who disagrees with you as "angry". I suggest you take courses because you are IGNORANT of the Bible ? When you matriculated is irrelevant. You constantly spout false debunked Fundamentalist fallacies. And BTW, what's wrong with women ? I think you just revealed something you didn't intend. Weeping

Quote:PPS. Bible prophecies are mainly written in the future tense in both testaments. Neither of us need school courses. Both of us need to parse past, present and future. You can do it.


Wrong. They (prophecies) are ADVICE for people OF THEIR own time. Of course they are in future tense. "Brush your teeth or they will rot". Advice. Future tense. It's really not THAT hard, and I gave you a major scholar who agrees. You ignore anything you don't like. You DO need to get a real education.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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12-11-2015, 11:53 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-11-2015 01:54 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(02-11-2015 01:55 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are several possibilities--I like your question, very thoughtful.

1. There were two virgin births (the child need not be divine).

2. The verse is parsed--there are numerous other OT prophecies describing events disparate in time--remember that the Hebrew writings aren't all of necessity chronological in intent or description--the Greek gospels are this way also. Most scholars think Luke is chronological and Mark and Matthew are ordered differently by design.

Thanks.

Q. Folow-up follow-up question.

Matthew 1:20-23 says, "an angel of the Lord appeared to (Joseph) in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

Now, if a virgin already gave birth to a baby boy in Ahaz's time, then this "prophecy" was already fulfilled. Why, then does Matthew say that Jesus was born specifically to fulfill the prophecy?


Doc

I have a child who fulfilled our pregnancy. Now that the child is older, there is more to him and to bless us. Again, Google "double prophecy" fulfillment for the scriptures. Thanks!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-11-2015, 11:55 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-11-2015 06:59 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Q,
Follow-up to the follow-up follow-up question. You say that Isaiah 7 was fulfilled both in Ahaz's and in Jesus's time. I want to quote the entire prophecy and ask you a question. Isaiah 7: 14-20 says, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

In that day the Lord will whistle for flies from the Nile delta in Egypt and for bees from the land of Assyria. They will all come and settle in the steep ravines and in the crevices in the rocks, on all the thornbushes and at all the water holes. In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River—the king of Assyria—to shave your heads and private parts, and to cut off your beards also. (NIV)

Clearly, the above portion represents a single prophecy. Now then, whose heads, private parts and beards were shaved in Jesus's time and who did the shaving? And why is this goldarned portion even in the Bible? Private parts?? What the hell does it all mean? For a more explicit translation look up this portion in the NET Bible.

Doc

Repeating, prophecies are parsed. For example, Jesus read aloud an Isaiah passage about giving sight to the blind and preaching good news then stopped reading to say, "Today, this is fulfilled in your hearing." Many believed in Him there but he stopped where the rest of the sentence spoke of Armageddon and the Return!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-11-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-11-2015 07:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 12:22 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, if you're not angry, why call me a lady in this thread? You know I'm a father and husband.

A "church lady". Because you pulled out the old tripe of anyone who disagrees with you as "angry". I suggest you take courses because you are IGNORANT of the Bible ? When you matriculated is irrelevant. You constantly spout false debunked Fundamentalist fallacies. And BTW, what's wrong with women ? I think you just revealed something you didn't intend. Weeping

Quote:PPS. Bible prophecies are mainly written in the future tense in both testaments. Neither of us need school courses. Both of us need to parse past, present and future. You can do it.


Wrong. They (prophecies) are ADVICE for people OF THEIR own time. Of course they are in future tense. "Brush your teeth or they will rot". Advice. Future tense. It's really not THAT hard, and I gave you a major scholar who agrees. You ignore anything you don't like. You DO need to get a real education.

You know I'm a male and called me a lady. That was incorrect. We also both know the church lady is a spoof character on SNL to mock religious persons.

Also, you are (purposefully?) conflating things like "Brush your teeth and they will rot" with prophecies like "All persons will be judged, forever." Stop.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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12-11-2015, 01:00 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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12-11-2015, 01:24 PM (This post was last modified: 12-11-2015 01:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(12-11-2015 11:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 06:59 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Q,
Follow-up to the follow-up follow-up question. You say that Isaiah 7 was fulfilled both in Ahaz's and in Jesus's time. I want to quote the entire prophecy and ask you a question. Isaiah 7: 14-20 says, "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. The Lord will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.”

In that day the Lord will whistle for flies from the Nile delta in Egypt and for bees from the land of Assyria. They will all come and settle in the steep ravines and in the crevices in the rocks, on all the thornbushes and at all the water holes. In that day the Lord will use a razor hired from beyond the Euphrates River—the king of Assyria—to shave your heads and private parts, and to cut off your beards also. (NIV)

Clearly, the above portion represents a single prophecy. Now then, whose heads, private parts and beards were shaved in Jesus's time and who did the shaving? And why is this goldarned portion even in the Bible? Private parts?? What the hell does it all mean? For a more explicit translation look up this portion in the NET Bible.

Doc

Repeating, prophecies are parsed. For example, Jesus read aloud an Isaiah passage about giving sight to the blind and preaching good news then stopped reading to say, "Today, this is fulfilled in your hearing." Many believed in Him there but he stopped where the rest of the sentence spoke of Armageddon and the Return!

Prove it.
The gospels are not history.

Yeah you wichsh I would stop explaining why the future tense was used, and your prophesy bullshit is all wet. There are many books by REAL scholrs about the role of a prophet in Hebrew society. You REALLY should read one.

Prophesy os not "prediction" of the future, as you have been told many times. That was NOT the role of a prophet. When "peshers" STARTED to be interpreted as omens during the Apocolyptic Period, that changed. Isaiah had NO INTENTION and no knowledge he was making a "prediction". Omens were forbidden.

You need a Biblical education, Q.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/...nt-israel/

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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13-11-2015, 09:04 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(12-11-2015 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-11-2015 01:54 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Q. Folow-up follow-up question.

Matthew 1:20-23 says, "an angel of the Lord appeared to (Joseph) in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel” (which means “God with us”).

Now, if a virgin already gave birth to a baby boy in Ahaz's time, then this "prophecy" was already fulfilled. Why, then does Matthew say that Jesus was born specifically to fulfill the prophecy?


Doc

I have a child who fulfilled our pregnancy. Now that the child is older, there is more to him and to bless us. Again, Google "double prophecy" fulfillment for the scriptures. Thanks!


I have no idea what you are saying here, Q. Your analogy makes no sense. But granting your analogy, what is the prophetic equivalent of a spontaneous abortion or a child who is born horribly mutated? And is that also a "fulfillment of a pregnancy"?

Doc
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13-11-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(12-11-2015 01:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-11-2015 11:55 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating, prophecies are parsed. For example, Jesus read aloud an Isaiah passage about giving sight to the blind and preaching good news then stopped reading to say, "Today, this is fulfilled in your hearing." Many believed in Him there but he stopped where the rest of the sentence spoke of Armageddon and the Return!

Prove it.
The gospels are not history.

Yeah you wichsh I would stop explaining why the future tense was used, and your prophesy bullshit is all wet. There are many books by REAL scholrs about the role of a prophet in Hebrew society. You REALLY should read one.

Prophesy os not "prediction" of the future, as you have been told many times. That was NOT the role of a prophet. When "peshers" STARTED to be interpreted as omens during the Apocolyptic Period, that changed. Isaiah had NO INTENTION and no knowledge he was making a "prediction". Omens were forbidden.

You need a Biblical education, Q.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/...nt-israel/

I don't think I need to repeat myself yet again on this topic. Everyone who reads the scriptures in English or the original languages can find hundreds of examples of prophecies that came true between days and years later after their utterance. You may have the last word.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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