Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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01-05-2015, 01:26 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2015 01:47 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-04-2015 07:14 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 04:58 PM)Dusky Wrote:  Thus, it's okay if god says so.

So if god told a mother to murder her infant children by drowning them in a bathtub, would this be fine for you?

After all he's ordered Moses to kill Isaac but rescinded it right when he was going to stab him. And other people have killed their kids because they claimed to hear a god speak to them.

I think you meant Abraham. Also Isaac could been killed according to midrash's (more about it in S. Spiegel "The Last Trial"). And there was at least one other sacrifice - daughter of Jefte.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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01-05-2015, 06:54 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-04-2015 12:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If I were to agree with you that secular morality works/is effectual, would you agree with me that is completely subjective since it is rooted in the minds of changeable people, my original point?

I think you're making a false dichotomy between divine command theory and moral relativism. Relativism posits that moral truth is whatever a given society decides it to be. Divine command theory is a form of moral relativism that says moral truth is whatever God decides it to be.

I wholeheartedly disagree with both systems. In my view moral truth is the synthesis of values and reality. What we value is relative and subjective. We value life over death. We value heath over sickness, happiness over suffering.

But how we best maximise things we value is objective.

It does not depend on the minds of changeable people. It depends on reality. Moreover the subjective values potion of moral truths aren't really all that hard to agree upon. Our shared experiences aren't really all that different despite conflicting ideology.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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01-05-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-04-2015 06:23 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 05:25 PM)Dusky Wrote:  I entirely agree. It's nothing but mental illness.

My question to Q tho is, if he was certain, without a doubt, that god told a mother to drown the kid, would he view this is justified because god told her to do it?

Qbert's going to go with whatever the bibble says. Because he has too. He can't back pedal now...at least not here.

Entirely true. My thing is, how does one discern if the voices in their head is god or not? Clearly, given the book, he's given commands like these before, so a person in his position would find it entirely plausible to murder their children. He may be requesting it to test your faith, demand sacrifice, or what have you.

There's a problem with Divine Command theory. There's also a problem if someone comes to a high-ranking power and actually believes in Divine Command theory. Highly unlikely, but if this type of thinking spreads, it could inflict serious damage.
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01-05-2015, 02:19 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-04-2015 02:30 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, I do know people who died and went to Hell. Watching them depart this world was very painful. Yes, I do know that Jesus died and resurrected and speaks with authority over these matters.

Q is the next Dante! A traveler between realms. How did you get to hell to see them? Did you use a Tardis?

(24-04-2015 08:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  What I've observed doing ministry in nursing homes and hospice centers is that born again patients are mentally together, and happy for a visit, and happy in general, even the ones whose family are long gone and who have not had regular visits for months, even years. God gives Christians a sound mind per 2 Timothy 1. These people are alert, sharp and want to tell you what they read in the Bible that morning that encouraged them...

This is my guess. If you where doing ministry work. You showed up a day or two to pitch your "wares". Maybe for the short time you where their they would be ecstatic just to talk to another person. But your not a doctor or a nurse. So you don't stay. How did the nurses look when you came in. Tiered? Stressed?

My great-grand mother lived to be 101. She had to live in hospice center for the last 20 years of her life because of Alzheimer's. The last time i saw her was for her 100th birthday. She didn't know who my grandfather was. She didn't know why 4 generations of her relatives where there. She was just happy that she got cake and people came to see her.

(24-04-2015 08:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've also had the displeasure of watching loved ones die in agony as well as the unredeemed state.

By this statement, to me, You would able to deal with the agony part as long as they were redeemed.

Sure Bob had his arm sawed off, but at least he accepted Jesus.

(24-04-2015 08:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Me? I was a real piece of work before Jesus, and He's still working. I know that. But my marriage and children and relationships are on a base of God. Getting better all the time, like the Beatles sang...

You where worse?!

But seriously thou. So you feel if the God part of your life was taken out your kids and wife would leave you? Or vise versa? You would disown your children if they told you they didn't believe in god?

(30-04-2015 12:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I find genocide disgusting. The Jewish people, however, fought against peoples who were morally degenerate and further outnumbered them--many nations/tribes who had giants, iron chariots and weapons.

Wait. You think giants existed? Proff please.

And weren't the iron chariots the one thing god couldn't defeat?

Judge 1:18-19 The Lord was with Judah and enabled them to take possesion of the hill country, but they could not drive out the people who were living in the valley because those people had Iron Chariots.

(30-04-2015 12:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:I find genocide disgusting.


I stand behind each act and command of the Bible in terms of "Yes, God is right."

Genesis 6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Leviticus, 26: 7-9
You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you. For I will look on you favorably and make you fruitful, multiply you and confirm My covenant with you. You shall eat the old harvest, and clear out the old because of the new.


Deuteronomy 2:34
And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, or every city, we left none to remain.

Deuteronomy7:2
And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them.

1 Samuel 15:2-3
Thus saith the Lord of hosts...go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep camel and ass.

So you don't like Genocide, but you support it.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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04-05-2015, 02:39 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Congratulations commonsensei, it looks like you've delivered the knock out punch.

If past performance is anything to go by, he'll be back. Q will sit at home for a while, lick his wounds, battle with his cognitive dissonance, before resuming the good fight.
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05-05-2015, 02:52 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Q you've outdone yourself in this thread buddy. I think you've dropped in almost every line bullshit and presupposing Christianity has to offer.

But fortunately for all mankind, and especially for those of us who can live with reality, it is bullshit.

Sacrifice and forgiveness don't form a rational bond in your make believe tale. You're best to just go the route of "mysterious ways" here, and not continue to dig your stupid hole any deeper.

The idea of sin might work if each man was judged individually by God, but unfortunately for you, your faith has been molded by many generations of hands who didn't ever agree on the same thing. They interjected their ideals and beliefs throughout 2 millennia and now you're left with one of those whacky fangled art pieces that only pretentious assholes claim to like when surrounded by other pretentious assholes, and everyone that doesn't have that particular suggestive stick up their ass can look at and say, "What is this piece of shit?".
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05-05-2015, 09:45 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-05-2015 06:54 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 12:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  If I were to agree with you that secular morality works/is effectual, would you agree with me that is completely subjective since it is rooted in the minds of changeable people, my original point?

I think you're making a false dichotomy between divine command theory and moral relativism. Relativism posits that moral truth is whatever a given society decides it to be. Divine command theory is a form of moral relativism that says moral truth is whatever God decides it to be.

I wholeheartedly disagree with both systems. In my view moral truth is the synthesis of values and reality. What we value is relative and subjective. We value life over death. We value heath over sickness, happiness over suffering.

But how we best maximise things we value is objective.

It does not depend on the minds of changeable people. It depends on reality. Moreover the subjective values potion of moral truths aren't really all that hard to agree upon. Our shared experiences aren't really all that different despite conflicting ideology.

I didn't bring the Bible to the forefront for this, others did. I stand on my original statement--moral absolutes cannot be tied to men and their changing viewpoints. There have been millions of people who've done degenerate things while claiming they were doing right things--the flack the Bible persons are taking for their morals is evidence of this truth.

What I do agree with is that relativists are correct in saying without a force outside man, morals are shifting sands.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-05-2015, 09:48 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-05-2015 08:56 AM)Dusky Wrote:  
(30-04-2015 06:23 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Qbert's going to go with whatever the bibble says. Because he has too. He can't back pedal now...at least not here.

Entirely true. My thing is, how does one discern if the voices in their head is god or not? Clearly, given the book, he's given commands like these before, so a person in his position would find it entirely plausible to murder their children. He may be requesting it to test your faith, demand sacrifice, or what have you.

There's a problem with Divine Command theory. There's also a problem if someone comes to a high-ranking power and actually believes in Divine Command theory. Highly unlikely, but if this type of thinking spreads, it could inflict serious damage.

Peter discusses this concept in 1 Peter as he states he is an eyewitness and student of Jesus but that the Bible was more sure than his or other eyewitness testimony, because of the fulfillment of prophecy.

If a friend claimed to have heard the vox dei I would ask them to check what they thought they heard against the scriptures.

Also, I've been consistent in saying the scriptures should form our moral base, not religious experiences, Christian or otherwise.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-05-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(05-05-2015 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 06:54 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I think you're making a false dichotomy between divine command theory and moral relativism. Relativism posits that moral truth is whatever a given society decides it to be. Divine command theory is a form of moral relativism that says moral truth is whatever God decides it to be.

I wholeheartedly disagree with both systems. In my view moral truth is the synthesis of values and reality. What we value is relative and subjective. We value life over death. We value heath over sickness, happiness over suffering.

But how we best maximise things we value is objective.

It does not depend on the minds of changeable people. It depends on reality. Moreover the subjective values potion of moral truths aren't really all that hard to agree upon. Our shared experiences aren't really all that different despite conflicting ideology.

I didn't bring the Bible to the forefront for this, others did. I stand on my original statement--moral absolutes cannot be tied to men and their changing viewpoints. There have been millions of people who've done degenerate things while claiming they were doing right things--the flack the Bible persons are taking for their morals is evidence of this truth.

What I do agree with is that relativists are correct in saying without a force outside man, morals are shifting sands.

But there is an evolved force inside - it's called empathy.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-05-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(05-05-2015 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:56 AM)Dusky Wrote:  Entirely true. My thing is, how does one discern if the voices in their head is god or not? Clearly, given the book, he's given commands like these before, so a person in his position would find it entirely plausible to murder their children. He may be requesting it to test your faith, demand sacrifice, or what have you.

There's a problem with Divine Command theory. There's also a problem if someone comes to a high-ranking power and actually believes in Divine Command theory. Highly unlikely, but if this type of thinking spreads, it could inflict serious damage.

Peter discusses this concept in 1 Peter as he states he is an eyewitness and student of Jesus but that the Bible was more sure than his or other eyewitness testimony, because of the fulfillment of prophecy.

If a friend claimed to have heard the vox dei I would ask them to check what they thought they heard against the scriptures.

Also, I've been consistent in saying the scriptures should form our moral base, not religious experiences, Christian or otherwise.

Do you trust all your friends to interpret the scriptures, correctly?

Can you interpret the scriptures correctly?
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