Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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05-05-2015, 12:12 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(05-05-2015 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:56 AM)Dusky Wrote:  Entirely true. My thing is, how does one discern if the voices in their head is god or not? Clearly, given the book, he's given commands like these before, so a person in his position would find it entirely plausible to murder their children. He may be requesting it to test your faith, demand sacrifice, or what have you.

There's a problem with Divine Command theory. There's also a problem if someone comes to a high-ranking power and actually believes in Divine Command theory. Highly unlikely, but if this type of thinking spreads, it could inflict serious damage.

Peter discusses this concept in 1 Peter as he states he is an eyewitness and student of Jesus but that the Bible was more sure than his or other eyewitness testimony, because of the fulfillment of prophecy.

If a friend claimed to have heard the vox dei I would ask them to check what they thought they heard against the scriptures.

Also, I've been consistent in saying the scriptures should form our moral base, not religious experiences, Christian or otherwise.

Have you actually read "the Scriptures" (i.e., the Bible)? The "morality" presented therein is barbaric, and not followed in its entirety by any modern society. And that's a good thing.
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06-05-2015, 02:38 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(05-05-2015 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 08:56 AM)Dusky Wrote:  Entirely true. My thing is, how does one discern if the voices in their head is god or not? Clearly, given the book, he's given commands like these before, so a person in his position would find it entirely plausible to murder their children. He may be requesting it to test your faith, demand sacrifice, or what have you.

There's a problem with Divine Command theory. There's also a problem if someone comes to a high-ranking power and actually believes in Divine Command theory. Highly unlikely, but if this type of thinking spreads, it could inflict serious damage.

Peter discusses this concept in 1 Peter as he states he is an eyewitness and student of Jesus but that the Bible was more sure than his or other eyewitness testimony, because of the fulfillment of prophecy.

If a friend claimed to have heard the vox dei I would ask them to check what they thought they heard against the scriptures.

Also, I've been consistent in saying the scriptures should form our moral base, not religious experiences, Christian or otherwise.

"Peter" ain't that Peter. He was no eyewitness. Look it up.

There was no "bible" until the fourth century. "Peter" wrote in the first century. That should get you thinking.
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06-05-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(05-05-2015 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(01-05-2015 06:54 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I think you're making a false dichotomy between divine command theory and moral relativism. Relativism posits that moral truth is whatever a given society decides it to be. Divine command theory is a form of moral relativism that says moral truth is whatever God decides it to be.

I wholeheartedly disagree with both systems. In my view moral truth is the synthesis of values and reality. What we value is relative and subjective. We value life over death. We value heath over sickness, happiness over suffering.

But how we best maximise things we value is objective.

It does not depend on the minds of changeable people. It depends on reality. Moreover the subjective values potion of moral truths aren't really all that hard to agree upon. Our shared experiences aren't really all that different despite conflicting ideology.

I didn't bring the Bible to the forefront for this, others did. I stand on my original statement--moral absolutes cannot be tied to men and their changing viewpoints. There have been millions of people who've done degenerate things while claiming they were doing right things--the flack the Bible persons are taking for their morals is evidence of this truth.

What I do agree with is that relativists are correct in saying without a force outside man, morals are shifting sands.

For much the same reason I say that morality cannot come from the opinion of a god. That's just a different kind of relativism. We must agree values, and we must use science to determine how to maximise those values. That is how we discover moral truths.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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06-05-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-05-2015 02:38 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  That should get [Q] thinking.




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06-05-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-05-2015 02:38 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Peter discusses this concept in 1 Peter as he states he is an eyewitness and student of Jesus but that the Bible was more sure than his or other eyewitness testimony, because of the fulfillment of prophecy.

If a friend claimed to have heard the vox dei I would ask them to check what they thought they heard against the scriptures.

Also, I've been consistent in saying the scriptures should form our moral base, not religious experiences, Christian or otherwise.

"Peter" ain't that Peter. He was no eyewitness. Look it up.

There was no "bible" until the fourth century. "Peter" wrote in the first century. That should get you thinking.

Mark, I find that the councils that met affirmed what everyone knew beforehand, what was already considered apocrypha and what was canon. They were meeting to confront heresy and affirming the truths of the scriptures helped define orthodoxy. Most of the NT was shared as quotations in letters between church leaders - letters extant all before the 2nd century had ended.

"Peter" can be anyone you like in this case. It could be me, writing now, to say that hearing God's voice or some religious experience, even encountering the risen Jesus in person, is less compelling than the prophecies fulfilled.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-05-2015, 08:03 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-05-2015 07:05 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I didn't bring the Bible to the forefront for this, others did. I stand on my original statement--moral absolutes cannot be tied to men and their changing viewpoints. There have been millions of people who've done degenerate things while claiming they were doing right things--the flack the Bible persons are taking for their morals is evidence of this truth.

What I do agree with is that relativists are correct in saying without a force outside man, morals are shifting sands.

For much the same reason I say that morality cannot come from the opinion of a god. That's just a different kind of relativism. We must agree values, and we must use science to determine how to maximise those values. That is how we discover moral truths.

I appreciate your rigorous, rationalist approach--and in all things--but many/most people would be concerned to hear that morality will be upheld/confirmed in test tube. I am as sure as anything in science, and know you are also, that people need to eat to live. Does that make cannibalism moral and etc.?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-05-2015, 08:07 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(05-05-2015 12:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 09:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Peter discusses this concept in 1 Peter as he states he is an eyewitness and student of Jesus but that the Bible was more sure than his or other eyewitness testimony, because of the fulfillment of prophecy.

If a friend claimed to have heard the vox dei I would ask them to check what they thought they heard against the scriptures.

Also, I've been consistent in saying the scriptures should form our moral base, not religious experiences, Christian or otherwise.

Have you actually read "the Scriptures" (i.e., the Bible)? The "morality" presented therein is barbaric, and not followed in its entirety by any modern society. And that's a good thing.

"barbaric" - savagely cruel, brutal, primitive, unsophisticated

Bible - love your neighbor as if they were your own person, do not listen to hearsay but accept two or three witnesses, execute pedophiles, honor your parents, pay your debts in full, release indentured persons once their contract is fulfilled, take a day off to rest rather than work all the time, put family above career and fiscal success

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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06-05-2015, 08:46 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 12:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Have you actually read "the Scriptures" (i.e., the Bible)? The "morality" presented therein is barbaric, and not followed in its entirety by any modern society. And that's a good thing.

"barbaric" - savagely cruel, brutal, primitive, unsophisticated

Bible - love your neighbor as if they were your own person, do not listen to hearsay but accept two or three witnesses, execute pedophiles, honor your parents, pay your debts in full, release indentured persons once their contract is fulfilled, take a day off to rest rather than work all the time, put family above career and fiscal success

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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06-05-2015, 09:18 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(05-05-2015 12:12 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Have you actually read "the Scriptures" (i.e., the Bible)? The "morality" presented therein is barbaric, and not followed in its entirety by any modern society. And that's a good thing.

"barbaric" - savagely cruel, brutal, primitive, unsophisticated

Bible - love your neighbor as if they were your own person, do not listen to hearsay but accept two or three witnesses, execute pedophiles, honor your parents, pay your debts in full, release indentured persons once their contract is fulfilled, take a day off to rest rather than work all the time, put family above career and fiscal success

also Bible:

1. God has a hissy fit because his creation didn't turn out like he planned and wipes out all life on earth (including innocent children, animals, etc.).

2. God commands Abraham to sacrifice his only son.

3. God "hardens Pharoah's heart" so that he (God) can demonstrate his power by sending plague after plague to the Egyptian people (who are by and large innocent).

4. God mandates death by stoning for all kinds of petty offenses (like sassing your parents or working on the Sabbath).

5. God commands the Israelites (over and over again) to commit genocide.

6. God sends bears to devour little children because they made fun of a prophet.

7. And in case you want to protest that "all of that is in the Old Testament" -- Jesus himself condemns people to everlasting torture simply for believing the wrong thing.

If you'll excuse me for saying so, all of that sounds pretty barbaric to me. And I'm just barely scratching the surface. The Bible is full of stuff like this.
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06-05-2015, 12:47 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2015 12:51 PM by Commonsensei.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Bible - love your neighbor as if they were your own person

Expect if they don't believe you when you tell them about god. Or have something you want, like land, women, or power.
Battles from Abraham to Israel’s Conquest

Abraham’s 318 against the Armies of Shinar (Babylon) – Genesis 14
Pharaoh Pursues the Israelites in Exodus – Exodus 14
The Israelites Fight Back against the Amalekites – Exodus 17:8-16
Israel Opposes the Midianites and Moabites – Numbers 31:1-11 (Matt. 19:14)
Israel’s Rules of War – Deuteronomy 20 (Exo. 23:24, Lev. 18:21-24, 19:24, 20:2-3, Deut. 18:9-14)
Israel Marches on the City of Jericho – Joshua 6
Israel’s Struggle with the City of AI – Joshua 7-8
Joshua Leads Israel against the 5 Amorite Kings – Joshua 10 (Deut. 9:5)
King Jabin of Hazor with a Great Army Opposes Joshua and Israel – Joshua 11
Israel’s Continuing Conquests – Judges 1:1-11
Ehud Leads Israel against the Moabites – Judges 3:12-30
Barak Leads Naphtali and Zebulun against Sisera, the Commander of Canaan – Judges 4
Gideon’s 300 Rise Up against the Midianites – Judges 7-8:21
Israel Wars with Its Own Tribe of Benjamin – Judges 19-20

Battles of the Kingdom

The Philistines Capture the Ark of Covenant – 1 Samuel 4:1-11
Samuel Leads Israel to Repent and Repel the Philistines – 1 Samuel 7
Saul Leads Israel to Save the City of Jabesh Gilead – 1 Samuel 11
The Battle at Michmash – 1 Samuel 13:16-14:23 (14:47-48)
Saul Leads Israel against the Amalekites – 1 Samuel 15:1-9 (15:19, 33)
The Battle of Sochoh, David verses Goliath – 1 Samuel 17
David Saves the City of Keilah and Out Maneuvers King Saul – 1 Samuel 23 (21:1-15, 22:1-5)
Saul’s Pursuit of David in the En Gedi – 1 Samuel 24
David’s Strategic Movements -1 Samuel 26-27
David Saves the City of Ziklag – 1 Samuel 30
King Saul’s Final Battle – 1 Samuel 31
War Between David’s Judah and Ishbosheth’s Israel – 2 Samuel 2-4
King David’s Conquest Establishes Jerusalem – 2 Samuel 5
David’s Mighty Men and Special Training – 1 Chron. 11:10-25, 12:1-2, 8
King David’s Great Conquests – 2 Samuel 8 (2 Chron. 18)
The Ammonite Rebellion – 2 Samuel 10
Absalom’s Rebellion – 2 Samuel 18 (2 Sam. 13-17)
Sheba’s Rebellion – 2 Samuel 20
King David Avenges the Gibeonites – 2 Samuel 21 (1 Chron. 29:26-30)

Battles of the Divided Kingdoms, Judah and Israel

Israel’s King Ambushes Judah – 2 Chronicles 13
Ethiopia’s Army, Greater than One Million, Attacks Judah – 2 Chronicles 14
King Jehoshaphat’s Army of Judah Worships and Sings in the Face of Battle – 2 Chronicles 20
King Ahab of Israel’s Battles with Syria – 1 Kings 20, 22
Israel and Judah Joined Together to Defeat the Moabites – 2 Kings 3
The Syrian Army Come to Conquer Israel including Elisha – 2 Kings 6:8-7:20
Edom Revolts against King Jehoram of Judah – 2 Chronicles 21
King Amaziah of Judah Wars against Edom – 2 Chronicles 25:1-16
King Amaziah Stirs Up Israel to Battle – 2 Chronicles 25:17-24
King Uzziah of Judah Fights the Philistines – 2 Chronicles 26:1-15
Judah is Weakened by Battles – 2 Chronicles 28
The Assyrian Invasion – 2 Kings 18-19 (2 Chron. 32:20-21)
King Josiah Goes Out to War against Pharaoh Necho – 2 Chronicles 35:20-27 (2 Kings 23:29-30)
The Babylonian Captivity of Judah – 2 Kings 25

Christian Battles

The Destruction of Jerusalem – Luke 19:41-44, 21:5-24, (Matt. 24, Mark 13)
The Christian War – John 18:36, 2 Corinthians 10:3-6 (Rom. 13:12, Eph. 6:11-18)
The War in Heaven between Michael and Satan – Revelation 12:1-17 (Rev. 11:2)
The Defeat of the Beast in the Battle of Armageddon – Revelation 19:11-21 (16:12-16)
The Last Victory – Revelation 20:1-15


(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  do not listen to hearsay but accept two or three witnesses,
Except for Jesus...he told me he never lies so he's legit.

(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  execute pedophiles,
Just not Rapists. Make them Marry their Victims.

And what passage dose it say this part about pedophiles?

All I could find was the one where the purist guy was offering up his two virgin daughters to a crowed of men. Who then after gets drunk himself, and has sex with them.

(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  honor your parents,
Because they will FUCKING KILL YOU if you don't.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death.

(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  pay your debts in full,
Because if you don't we will ether kill you, or have your childrens, children, children. pay it off.

(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  release indentured persons once their contract is fulfilled,
Slave owner "What do you mean you can't leave?

Exodus 21:7-11
If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do. If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her. If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters. If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

Exodus 21:2-6
If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, ‘I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,’ then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

Deuteronomy 15; 12-5
If your kinsman, a Hebrew man or woman, is sold to you, then he shall serve you six years, but in the seventh year you shall set him free. When you set him free, you shall not send him away empty-handed. You shall furnish him liberally from your flock and from your threshing floor and from your wine vat; you shall give to him as the LORD your God has blessed you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today.



(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  take a day off to rest rather than work all the time,

Oh man good thing this book told me to relax. I wouldn't have remembered.

(06-05-2015 08:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  put family above career and fiscal success
Because who needs income?

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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