Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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13-04-2015, 02:10 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(13-04-2015 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I agree with some other Christian thinkers that Jesus had to die for sin.
Let's say my neighbor has an affair.
If I kill one of my other neighbors would that atone for the first neighbor's "sin"?
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13-04-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(13-04-2015 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 05:50 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Good points!
The very idea that god cannot tolerate sin is an admission that this god is limited. Why can't god do a simple act of forgiveness by simply not holding something against someone?
Us lowly humans do this simple act of forgiveness every day, yet it's something this god cannot do.
We demonstrate a power that this god does not have every time we forgive someone without requiring any kind of blood sacrifice.
We further demonstrate an ability this god does not have by simply not taking offense at something to begin with, we don't let it bother us! This is something FAR beyond the capability of this god.

We continue to demonstrate our ability to surpass god's ability by not requiring punishment for any alleged wrongs against us. I wouldn't require a single person to burn in hell for anything they did while on this Earth, at most, I would simply make sure their consciousness ended at death without any post-death punishment.

Good questions, I think.

If I kill your dog, will you forgive me? And if you do forgive me, I mean you really do forgive me, will that bring your dog back from the dead?

The death and resurrection of Christ is dealing with sin--a very powerful force--and our own resurrection from death. I agree with some other Christian thinkers that Jesus had to die for sin.

People forgive others for all kinds of horrible things. I forgave my daughter for losing a heirloom family brooch. It is lost forever, never to return but I totally forgave her. People have forgiven others for murdering their child knowing full well their child will never return and knowing that there is no afterlife.

How dare you think so little of humanity that forgiving a transgression MUST involve some sort of return on the investment. Forgiving someone shouldn't involve bringing them back or getting anything out of it.

Dodgy

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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13-04-2015, 02:54 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(13-04-2015 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 05:50 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Good points!
The very idea that god cannot tolerate sin is an admission that this god is limited. Why can't god do a simple act of forgiveness by simply not holding something against someone?
Us lowly humans do this simple act of forgiveness every day, yet it's something this god cannot do.
We demonstrate a power that this god does not have every time we forgive someone without requiring any kind of blood sacrifice.
We further demonstrate an ability this god does not have by simply not taking offense at something to begin with, we don't let it bother us! This is something FAR beyond the capability of this god.

We continue to demonstrate our ability to surpass god's ability by not requiring punishment for any alleged wrongs against us. I wouldn't require a single person to burn in hell for anything they did while on this Earth, at most, I would simply make sure their consciousness ended at death without any post-death punishment.

Good questions, I think.

If I kill your dog, will you forgive me? And if you do forgive me, I mean you really do forgive me, will that bring your dog back from the dead?

The death and resurrection of Christ is dealing with sin--a very powerful force--and our own resurrection from death. I agree with some other Christian thinkers that Jesus had to die for sin.

Why did Jesus have to die for man's sin? This is after all, your god we are speaking about. One that is all powerful that can immediately absolve mankind of any wrongdoing done by those that came before him by just making it so.

It's been said before, but it applies here:

God gives you the ailment of sin then absolves you of that sin by sending himself, and then sacrificing himself to save you ultimately from himself.

Why not skip the middle man (or self for that matter)? Surely there are easier ways for an omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving god that can skip sacrificing himself.

Unless you find the resurrection a statement of his "power", but then again, why do it in a time where so few would see it? So we would have to "have faith"? If so, that doesn't seem like such a smart thing on my side of the fence, and leaves this type of method open for questioning.
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13-04-2015, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2015 03:05 PM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(13-04-2015 02:54 PM)Dusky Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 01:57 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Good questions, I think.

If I kill your dog, will you forgive me? And if you do forgive me, I mean you really do forgive me, will that bring your dog back from the dead?

The death and resurrection of Christ is dealing with sin--a very powerful force--and our own resurrection from death. I agree with some other Christian thinkers that Jesus had to die for sin.

Why did Jesus have to die for man's sin? This is after all, your god we are speaking about. One that is all powerful that can immediately absolve mankind of any wrongdoing done by those that came before him by just making it so.

It's been said before, but it applies here:

God gives you the ailment of sin then absolves you of that sin by sending himself, and then sacrificing himself to save you ultimately from himself.

Why not skip the middle man (or self for that matter)? Surely there are easier ways for an omniscient, omnipotent, and all loving god that can skip sacrificing himself.

Unless you find the resurrection a statement of his "power", but then again, why do it in a time where so few would see it? So we would have to "have faith"? If so, that doesn't seem like such a smart thing on my side of the fence, and leaves this type of method open for questioning.

Atonement makes no sense, the more you think about it, the more idiotic it is, and the smaller this god becomes. YHWH cannot do what a human does, simply forgive without demanding something in return.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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13-04-2015, 03:55 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Jesus' death is like a murderer sentenced to death finds another person who is willing to die in his place, and the murderer is then set free.
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13-04-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(13-04-2015 03:55 PM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  Jesus' death is like a murderer sentenced to death finds another person who is willing to die in his place, and the murderer is then set free.
According to Christian mythology, Jesus was never asked to sacifice himself for others. The Romans never killed Jesus as payment for humanities "sins".
According to the myth, Jesus died because he was disrupting the peace on the Jewish holy days. If you believe Tactius' account, The "annoited one" was put to death as a scape goat for The great fire.
So really there was no understanding or arrangement by Jesus, the Romans or anyone else as to Jesus' death being for payment of humanities sins. This malarky came about well after the alleged event.
You would have to have a very illogical and warped/controlled mind to consider the death of someone can be a payment for "sins" of others. Granted this is the idea told to believers and as they have become accustomed/conditioned, they choose to believe what they are told.
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13-04-2015, 04:28 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2015 07:11 PM by claywise.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Yahweh is such an insecure qunt, considering that it's all powerful etc. etc. I mean, really, why should it give a damn whether anyone/thing "loves" it or "worships" it?

Why not just be honest, like every human being has to do? Put itself out there, make itself apparent to everyone, some are going to like or love it, some are going to think it's an ass.

People put up with such judgments every day. Why is Yahweh such a wuss?

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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13-04-2015, 04:32 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(13-04-2015 04:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You would have to have a very illogical and warped/controlled mind to consider the death of someone can be a payment for "sins" of others.

This is what makes Christianity perhaps the least mature major belief system on earth.

Rabbi Zalman Schacter-Shalomi, an Orthodox rabbi who threw everyone into a tizzy by taking LSD, starting the Jewish Renewal movement and practicing radical pluralism, used to note that any religion that allowed someone else to take responsibility for one's actions is a childish religion indeed.

No, I don't share "Reb Zal's" vague theism, but he was cool with atheists, too.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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13-04-2015, 04:51 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(13-04-2015 04:22 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 03:55 PM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  Jesus' death is like a murderer sentenced to death finds another person who is willing to die in his place, and the murderer is then set free.
According to Christian mythology, Jesus was never asked to sacifice himself for others. The Romans never killed Jesus as payment for humanities "sins".
According to the myth, Jesus died because he was disrupting the peace on the Jewish holy days. If you believe Tactius' account, The "annoited one" was put to death as a scape goat for The great fire.
So really there was no understanding or arrangement by Jesus, the Romans or anyone else as to Jesus' death being for payment of humanities sins. This malarky came about well after the alleged event.
You would have to have a very illogical and warped/controlled mind to consider the death of someone can be a payment for "sins" of others. Granted this is the idea told to believers and as they have become accustomed/conditioned, they choose to believe what they are told.

I'm saying god the father sent Jesus here for the sins he created to be a scapegoat for himself. Even though according to the myth, Jesus is also set free in the end with his father feeling good about himself. It really makes no sense except to those that want it to.
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13-04-2015, 05:04 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
It is well accepted that Paul invented the curious concept that Christ was crucified to save souls from their sins. Christians have made this concept part of their dogma. This begs the question why.

Having the son of God become human, and free the faithful from the guilt and consequences of their sins, was an attractive story. It meant God was no longer a distant impersonal deity, like the character in the Old Testament, but someone more like them, with whom they could identify. Christ became an ally, a great guy, and everyone’s best friend. He would take on your punishment for you, provided you believed in him. Do that, and Paul promised a free pass to salvation. Churches have pushed this unusual plan to such an extent that Christians rarely question it. This is why some of them insist others believe in Jesus; so that sins can be forgiven and entry into heaven attained.

The whole argument is irrational. Why would the son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world? Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that punishes a scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven? Why would a hypothetical omniscient god buy into this balderdash? Amongst theologians there has never been a sound explanation for this idea, because no sensible explanation is possible. (http://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/...tonement/, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...xyq3ltls).

Paul’s God could simply be had to say “you’re genuinely sorry, so I forgive you.” Yet that was not good enough for Paul, as he’d been indoctrinated with scripture, so couldn’t imagine a benevolent God. Instead, he had God as a rigid demagogue demanding a sacrifice.
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