Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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19-05-2015, 10:18 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-05-2015 03:47 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(18-05-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating: If I saw Jesus rise from the dead and do other miracles, I would a) tell everyone I met everything I could remember Him saying, hundreds of times, to all sizes of audience and b) find me a "scribe" sometime.

Not repeating: There were Jewish people walking about, papyrus in hand. In the English Bible, they are called "scribes" or "doctors of the Law" and further, EVERY Rabbi was known to be remarkable for memorizing scripture and oral Talmud.

I guess it's par for the course that you would assault the scriptures, Mark, but it's perhaps disingenuous or perhaps some kind of mental block that you keep saying other things like "There's no way the NT was copied accurately" and "There's no way these idiots would remember supposed sayings of Jesus accurately". The Masoretic, received text of the OT is called such because of the persons who SUPER-DUPER (yeah, that's a theology word, I think) copied and copied whatever they thunk (another theology word for what believers thought in past tense/time Smile) was scripture. You know, but seem to have forgotten, that making one mistake in a scroll meant the whole scroll went up in flames, and I mean literally. Do you really think masora who thought Jesus was the Jewish Messiah couldn't remember or write down what He said and did? Really?

And since science forces us to admit that the NT documents are around the close of the first century at the latest, do you REALLY think there was no one in the ENTIRE ROMAN EMPIRE who wasn't around in Jesus's or Paul's day to refute their sayings? There are DOZENS of wide-flung places where Paul preached. Why didn't someone say, "Roman myth! We've been in Ephesus 20 generations and there was no riot here when X was proconsul," etc.

"There [i]were Jewish people walking about, papyrus in hand."[/i]

You live in fantasy land. There were no scribes tramping around Galilee hoping for a scoop. Jeebus was a deluded grubby little insurrectionist hoping to start a war. Read that again.

"Do you really think masora who thought Jesus was the Jewish Messiah couldn't remember or write down what He said and did? Really?"

You don't know who wrote the gospels. You have no evidence of a genuine link between the authors and an historical Jesus. The gospels were obviously written by gentiles, or at best, in some parts, by Jews under gentile supervision. It happened 40+ years after Jesus died.

"science forces us to admit"
Your attitude is all wrong. Science is beautiful and should be embraced.

"do you REALLY think there was no one in the ENTIRE ROMAN EMPIRE who wasn't around in Jesus' or Paul's day to refute their sayings?"
Of course not. There were the Nazarenes, who were the original family and followers of Jesus. They were marginalised and almost removed from the pages of history. You need to learn about them. You also need to develop an appreciation of how propaganda works; how the Roman government controlled what people thought.

The NT was obviously written by Gentiles? Including the epistle to the Hebrews [the Messianic Jews]? Including every epistle addressed to "the twelve scribes scattered abroad, and especially to the Israel of God (the Messianic Jews)?"

You REALLY think the Romans formed a conspiracy to "quiet" the Jews who were already almost in diaspora, during a conflict in Palestine during the Pax Romana, when they had the largest, best equipped Wehrmacht in the known (and unknown!) world by telling the Jews their religion was kaput and to start a new one? Oh yes, that worked so well for Muhammed, right? "I'm the new apostle". Please, Mark, please. I thought you knew Judaism fairly well. You can't get many Jewish people to convert now!

No one couldn't prove Paul and the apostles hadn't done miracles in two dozen Roman towns or established huge churches, even schools of learning? No one could verify the riots, the stoning, the shipwrecks, the healings?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-05-2015, 10:21 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-05-2015 04:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 03:47 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "do you REALLY think there was no one in the ENTIRE ROMAN EMPIRE who wasn't around in Jesus' or Paul's day to refute their sayings?"
Of course not. There were the Nazarenes, who were the original family and followers of Jesus. They were marginalised and almost removed from the pages of history. You need to learn about them. You also need to develop an appreciation of how propaganda works; how the Roman government controlled what people thought.

Also, contemporary criticism has failed to snuff out Mormonism, Scientology, cargo cults, the Moonies, Heaven's Gate, psychic healing, astral projection, the Roswell 'landings', or ancient aliens.

So I guess all of that shit will be de facto truth in a few centuries or so, right Q? Nobody can prove that aliens didn't land in 1940's Roswell, New Mexico. So you'll be right on board with their cult, right?

There are differences between 12 people saying "I saw Joseph Smith's gold plates" and statements like the NT's "And so, John changed rivers to baptize, because THERE WAS MORE WATER THERE." Or statements like Jesus doing 100% of his missions work in Jerusalem during the major festivals when Jews would visit in the tens of thousands from across the Empire. Remember? Paul told one monarch, "King Agrippa, I know you've heard about the Christ. These things weren't done in a corner."

There are differences between the Moonies, JWs and Mormons, whose converts in the main come from new births, and the gospel, which is what they had then, which is unchanged, which still works, now.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-05-2015, 01:44 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-05-2015 10:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are differences between 12 people saying "I saw Joseph Smith's gold plates" and statements like the NT's "And so, John changed rivers to baptize, because THERE WAS MORE WATER THERE." Or statements like Jesus doing 100% of his missions work in Jerusalem during the major festivals when Jews would visit in the tens of thousands from across the Empire. Remember? Paul told one monarch, "King Agrippa, I know you've heard about the Christ. These things weren't done in a corner."

There are differences between the Moonies, JWs and Mormons, whose converts in the main come from new births, and the gospel, which is what they had then, which is unchanged, which still works, now.


Oh, you mean all of the things Jesus supposedly did, but for which there is no evidence, written down by unknown and anonymous authors decades after the supposed events?


You do know the funny thing about fiction right? You're not bound by reality. An unverifiable story where you conveniently create 500 witnesses doesn't make the story any more real when all of your supposed eye-witnesses are also fictitious. For fuck's sake, I'm somehow amazed you're this dense. I shouldn't be, but there it is. Your capacity for ignorance and incredulity seems to know no bounds.

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19-05-2015, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2015 06:28 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-05-2015 10:13 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 03:24 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Repeating: If I saw Jesus rise from the dead and do other miracles, I would a) tell everyone I met everything I could remember Him saying, hundreds of times, to all sizes of audience and b) find me a "scribe" sometime."

Okay. Please explain why James, Jesus' brother, says nothing of this.

"I guess it's par for the course that you would assault the scriptures, Mark,"

Your language reveals that you are incapable of examining the topic objectively.

James, Jesus's brother, says nothing of what? He wrote an epistle about how to express faith in Jesus, practically and in a relevant manner. James and John "Boanerges" were eyewitness apostles. Are you saying James was an apostle? An eyewitness? On what basis(es)?

"James, Jesus's brother, says nothing of what?"

Nothing about your Jeebus. No virgin birth, no miracles, no parables, no crucifixion, no resurrection. Look it up. James knew none of this because he wrote before the gospels, so the Jesus story hadn't been created yet.
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19-05-2015, 03:25 PM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2015 04:31 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-05-2015 10:13 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 03:24 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Repeating: If I saw Jesus rise from the dead and do other miracles, I would a) tell everyone I met everything I could remember Him saying, hundreds of times, to all sizes of audience and b) find me a "scribe" sometime."

Okay. Please explain why James, Jesus' brother, says nothing of this.

"I guess it's par for the course that you would assault the scriptures, Mark,"

Your language reveals that you are incapable of examining the topic objectively.

James, Jesus's brother, says nothing of what? He wrote an epistle about how to express faith in Jesus, practically and in a relevant manner. James and John "Boanerges" were eyewitness apostles. Are you saying James was an apostle? An eyewitness? On what basis(es)?

"He wrote an epistle about how to express faith in Jesus, practically and in a relevant manner."

No he didn't. He wrote about how to be a good Jew ie how to obey "the law."

You are reading your bible with Christian coloured classes.
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19-05-2015, 04:02 PM (This post was last modified: 19-05-2015 06:30 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(18-05-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 03:51 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Q, here are some more factors to consider about your $64 question...

Yeshua’s Words?

There is no evidence that there were chroniclers writing down Yeshua’s comments as he spoke. Yet Jesus’ very words are quoted in long passages in all the Gospels. For example, there is a monologue that goes on barely uninterrupted for almost ten pages in John 13–18, and there are similar lengthy lectures in Matthew. They are clearly fictitious. People in those days could not record the words of speakers in real time, as we are able to do today. Papyrus, the ancient equivalent of paper, was expensive and hard to get hold of, as was ink. People did not know that Yeshua would have a premature demise, so they had no pressing need to document his words. Yeshua’s colleagues were itinerant, poor, had to watch their backs, and would probably have been too concerned with day-to-day survival to be bothered with jotting down his remarks.

Roughly nineteen hundred years ago, educational standards were comparatively poor. It is estimated that only twenty percent of people in the Roman Empire could read at all and less than ten percent could read well, and Jews in Palestine were even less literate. The author Meir Bar-Ilan claims that less than three percent of Israel’s population could read, and less than that in rural areas.

If you grew up Jewish outside a city, you were unschooled. It is highly unlikely that Yeshua or his disciples could read or write.

Interestingly, the authors of the Catholic encyclopedia disagree with Meir Bar-Ilan’s general assertion:

“We may suppose that the Apostles, at least most of them, read and spoke Greek as well as Aramaic, from their childhood.”

They “may suppose” that “most” of the apostles were bilingual, and were literate in two languages, but they cannot prove it, and the burden of proof for an outlandish claim lies with whoever makes it. It appears that the authors of the encyclopedia would have their readers believe that the apostles wrote the Gospels, (in Greek) yet authors elsewhere in the same publication claim they did not. One wonders whether carefully worded commentary is deliberately creating a false impression in parts of the Catholic encyclopedia.

The so-called “oral tradition” idea, said to be how Jesus’ supporters remembered what he said, and then later documented it, is very implausible. People have trouble remembering words from conversations five minutes ago, and their memories are very prone to suggestion, exaggeration, and confabulation. People forget, alter, and embroider details. Why would poorly educated peasants two thousand years ago perform any better?

Some of the ancient Jews are said to have been very good at remembering and reciting Scripture. Yet that was written Scripture, which would have been repeated many times, not what their colleagues said the day before.

Jewish peasants did not walk around with pen and papyrus in hand recording what people said.

Consider a modern analogy. Imagine a politician gave some speeches in a distant country forty years ago, and one year later was assassinated. A publisher asks you to write an interesting, detailed short story about the life of this character, who spoke a foreign language, whom you had never met, nor had anyone you talked to. You’re told he was someone special, and the publisher wants you to quote him. You can’t use the telephone, Internet, newspapers or a car. You would have to make sense of multiple disparate poorly remembered facts and rumors. Inevitably, most of your story would be made up. Imagine your report was handed on to the publisher’s marketing people, who tied up some loose ends and inconsistencies and added some details of their own. They had it translated into another language, it was promoted through a chain of bookstores, and it became a best seller. The end product wouldn’t be accurate history!

The job the original authors of Mark’s Gospel had would have been even more difficult. They were writing anything from, at the minimum, 40 years after Jesus’ death. A war had devastated Jewish society in the interim. In reality, any verbal tales they heard about Jesus would have been second hand at best and more likely have had almost no relation to an actual historical figure.

The Gospels do not contain Yeshua’s words.

Repeating: If I saw Jesus rise from the dead and do other miracles, I would a) tell everyone I met everything I could remember Him saying, hundreds of times, to all sizes of audience and b) find me a "scribe" sometime.

Not repeating: There were Jewish people walking about, papyrus in hand. In the English Bible, they are called "scribes" or "doctors of the Law" and further, EVERY Rabbi was known to be remarkable for memorizing scripture and oral Talmud.

I guess it's par for the course that you would assault the scriptures, Mark, but it's perhaps disingenuous or perhaps some kind of mental block that you keep saying other things like "There's no way the NT was copied accurately" and "There's no way these idiots would remember supposed sayings of Jesus accurately". The Masoretic, received text of the OT is called such because of the persons who SUPER-DUPER (yeah, that's a theology word, I think) copied and copied whatever they thunk (another theology word for what believers thought in past tense/time Smile) was scripture. You know, but seem to have forgotten, that making one mistake in a scroll meant the whole scroll went up in flames, and I mean literally. Do you really think masora who thought Jesus was the Jewish Messiah couldn't remember or write down what He said and did? Really?

And since science forces us to admit that the NT documents are around the close of the first century at the latest, do you REALLY think there was no one in the ENTIRE ROMAN EMPIRE who wasn't around in Jesus's or Paul's day to refute their sayings? There are DOZENS of wide-flung places where Paul preached. Why didn't someone say, "Roman myth! We've been in Ephesus 20 generations and there was no riot here when X was proconsul," etc.

"There [i]were Jewish people walking about, papyrus in hand. In the English Bible, they are called "scribes" or "doctors of the Law""[/i]

You don't understand what scribes were.
The scribes were mentioned often in the Gospels. They were bureaucrats, and most of them lived in Jerusalem, where they associated with the priests. They were experts in judicial procedures, helpful in the enforcement of Jewish law and custom, and even joined the governing class and served on the Sanhedrin. Because they depended on the wealthy for their training and their positions, they were loyal to the chief priests. There were also some lower-level scribes who served the villages, making contracts and documents and working as government officials.

Scribes were not itinerant reporters scouring the Galillean countryside looking for and reporting on news.

Re "EVERY Rabbi was known to be remarkable for memorizing scripture and oral Talmud."

You didn't read my post. Try again.
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19-05-2015, 04:25 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-05-2015 10:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 04:13 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Also, contemporary criticism has failed to snuff out Mormonism, Scientology, cargo cults, the Moonies, Heaven's Gate, psychic healing, astral projection, the Roswell 'landings', or ancient aliens.

So I guess all of that shit will be de facto truth in a few centuries or so, right Q? Nobody can prove that aliens didn't land in 1940's Roswell, New Mexico. So you'll be right on board with their cult, right?

There are differences between 12 people saying "I saw Joseph Smith's gold plates" and statements like the NT's "And so, John changed rivers to baptize, because THERE WAS MORE WATER THERE." Or statements like Jesus doing 100% of his missions work in Jerusalem during the major festivals when Jews would visit in the tens of thousands from across the Empire. Remember? Paul told one monarch, "King Agrippa, I know you've heard about the Christ. These things weren't done in a corner."

There are differences between the Moonies, JWs and Mormons, whose converts in the main come from new births, and the gospel, which is what they had then, which is unchanged, which still works, now.

"...the gospel, which is what they had then, which is unchanged"

No. There was, originally, hundreds of "gospels." If the four gospels we have now existed in the first century, they were in a very early, immature form.

"which still works, now."

This sort of slip of the tongue makes those of us who value the truth feel nauseous.
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20-05-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-05-2015 03:21 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(19-05-2015 10:13 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  James, Jesus's brother, says nothing of what? He wrote an epistle about how to express faith in Jesus, practically and in a relevant manner. James and John "Boanerges" were eyewitness apostles. Are you saying James was an apostle? An eyewitness? On what basis(es)?

"James, Jesus's brother, says nothing of what?"

Nothing about your Jeebus. No virgin birth, no miracles, no parables, no crucifixion, no resurrection. Look it up. James knew none of this because he wrote before the gospels, so the Jesus story hadn't been created yet.

James and Jesus were sons of a carpenter. Without any gospels yet, and without any miracles at all, please tell us why this man wrote his epistle.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-05-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
[quotes]They were experts in judicial procedures, helpful in the enforcement of Jewish law and custom...[/quote]

Quote:...some lower-level scribes who served the villages, making contracts and documents

Clearly, we both recognize what scribes were. Skilled both in memorization and letters.

I never said they followed Jesus about the countryside, detailing his movements for later tax refund purposes... you are deliberately misstating the facts regarding the extreme care scribes, Pharisees, Saducees and others took to record facts and maintain the very keys to God's Kingdom.

The Jewish people were exceptional for recording what they believed scripture and in copying it more than accurately. There was no finer, more honed method of copying documents apart from printing presses, and still later, computers and word processors.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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20-05-2015, 09:00 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Uh, as long as we're all being pedantic here ... there is no such thing as "more than accurately"; something is either accurate or it is not. Perhaps Q Bee, you feel the need to defend a bit of prosaic literature that is open to interpretation ... ?

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