Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
26-05-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-05-2015 05:49 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(22-05-2015 09:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, sorry. BB is certain "salvation" isn't an OT concept. "What good my brethren... can such faith save him?"

You've said Paul made up a new faith (and somehow, therefore, as a Roman conspirator, Paul declares all foods clean but says Gentiles are unclean) and now we have James making up the new Christian faith?

The word ""save" doesn't necessarily relate to your concept of "salvation"....for eg

"15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5, KJV)

Please quote for me, from James, where you think James is "making up the new Christian faith."

Perhaps you could then go on to explain why James would have written this about faith if he were a Christian...

"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


(James 1, KJV).

Show me why you think James was a Christian.

Where does James mention the resurrection (the central tenet) of Christianity? The miracles? The parables?

Please explain why the early church fathers described James as a pious Jew if he was a Christian.

Please explain why you imagine a Jew could be a Christian? The fact is you cannot be both. The two beliefs are mutually exclusive.

After you have failed to prove James was a Christian, ask yourself whether it is likely his brother, Yeshua , was a Christian.

The truth is that your god boy, Jeebus, if he existed, was a Jew, not a Christian.

I agree that not every "save" in the Bible is regarding salvation.

I would question (again) why James, a pious Jew who is Y'shua's brother, would add to the scriptures if he wasn't doing "Christian" scriptures. The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive. Christianity relies on Jewish scriptures to help authenticate a Jewish man as the Jewish Messiah who came unto Israel and gave halachic interpretations of the Mosaic Law, etc. The very word "Christian" means "follower of the [Jewish] Messiah".

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
26-05-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-05-2015 02:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-05-2015 05:49 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The word ""save" doesn't necessarily relate to your concept of "salvation"....for eg

"15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5, KJV)

Please quote for me, from James, where you think James is "making up the new Christian faith."

Perhaps you could then go on to explain why James would have written this about faith if he were a Christian...

"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


(James 1, KJV).

Show me why you think James was a Christian.

Where does James mention the resurrection (the central tenet) of Christianity? The miracles? The parables?

Please explain why the early church fathers described James as a pious Jew if he was a Christian.

Please explain why you imagine a Jew could be a Christian? The fact is you cannot be both. The two beliefs are mutually exclusive.

After you have failed to prove James was a Christian, ask yourself whether it is likely his brother, Yeshua , was a Christian.

The truth is that your god boy, Jeebus, if he existed, was a Jew, not a Christian.

I agree that not every "save" in the Bible is regarding salvation.

I would question (again) why James, a pious Jew who is Y'shua's brother, would add to the scriptures if he wasn't doing "Christian" scriptures. The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive. Christianity relies on Jewish scriptures to help authenticate a Jewish man as the Jewish Messiah who came unto Israel and gave halachic interpretations of the Mosaic Law, etc. The very word "Christian" means "follower of the [Jewish] Messiah".

James didn't "add to the scriptures", though -- he just wrote a letter. Someone else added it to "the scriptures" many years later.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Grasshopper's post
26-05-2015, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2015 02:47 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-05-2015 02:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-05-2015 05:49 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  The word ""save" doesn't necessarily relate to your concept of "salvation"....for eg

"15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5, KJV)

Please quote for me, from James, where you think James is "making up the new Christian faith."

Perhaps you could then go on to explain why James would have written this about faith if he were a Christian...

"17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."


(James 1, KJV).

Show me why you think James was a Christian.

Where does James mention the resurrection (the central tenet) of Christianity? The miracles? The parables?

Please explain why the early church fathers described James as a pious Jew if he was a Christian.

Please explain why you imagine a Jew could be a Christian? The fact is you cannot be both. The two beliefs are mutually exclusive.

After you have failed to prove James was a Christian, ask yourself whether it is likely his brother, Yeshua , was a Christian.

The truth is that your god boy, Jeebus, if he existed, was a Jew, not a Christian.

I agree that not every "save" in the Bible is regarding salvation.

I would question (again) why James, a pious Jew who is Y'shua's brother, would add to the scriptures if he wasn't doing "Christian" scriptures. The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive. Christianity relies on Jewish scriptures to help authenticate a Jewish man as the Jewish Messiah who came unto Israel and gave halachic interpretations of the Mosaic Law, etc. The very word "Christian" means "follower of the [Jewish] Messiah".

"The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive."

W R O N G!

The Jews believed in one god Yahweh who had no family. It is a central tenet of their faith.

Christians believe Yahweh had a son, Jeebus.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine.

Jews do not believe that their god could die.

Jews believe they have a never ending covenant with their God.

Christians believe there is a new, and different "covenant," one that replaces the Jews'.

Christians have invented their own scripture, the new testament, which the Jews don't recognise.

Jews believe they are special in god's eyes.

Christians think that everyone who believes in Jeebus is special.

Christians think that Paul, the creator of Christian theology, was someone really special. Jews, along with the rest of the world, think Paul was a tosser and a heretic.

Jews have certain firmly held traditions.... the sabbath, kosher food, circumcision.

Christians have different traditions.

These differences between Jews and Christians are irreconcilable. Christians typically patronise the Jews by implying that Jews are just Christians who ain't discovered the truth yet.

PS you haven't demonstrated why you think James was a Christian.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mark Fulton's post
27-05-2015, 10:04 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-05-2015 02:07 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I agree that not every "save" in the Bible is regarding salvation.

I would question (again) why James, a pious Jew who is Y'shua's brother, would add to the scriptures if he wasn't doing "Christian" scriptures. The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive. Christianity relies on Jewish scriptures to help authenticate a Jewish man as the Jewish Messiah who came unto Israel and gave halachic interpretations of the Mosaic Law, etc. The very word "Christian" means "follower of the [Jewish] Messiah".

James didn't "add to the scriptures", though -- he just wrote a letter. Someone else added it to "the scriptures" many years later.

Mark says it came before, not after, not during, which is why I'm asking.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-05-2015, 10:10 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-05-2015 03:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 02:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I agree that not every "save" in the Bible is regarding salvation.

I would question (again) why James, a pious Jew who is Y'shua's brother, would add to the scriptures if he wasn't doing "Christian" scriptures. The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive. Christianity relies on Jewish scriptures to help authenticate a Jewish man as the Jewish Messiah who came unto Israel and gave halachic interpretations of the Mosaic Law, etc. The very word "Christian" means "follower of the [Jewish] Messiah".

"The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive."

W R O N G!

The Jews believed in one god Yahweh who had no family. It is a central tenet of their faith.

Christians believe Yahweh had a son, Jeebus.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine.

Jews do not believe that their god could die.

Jews believe they have a never ending covenant with their God.

Christians believe there is a new, and different "covenant," one that replaces the Jews'.

Chritians have invented their own scripture, the new testament, which the Jews don't recognise.

Jews believe they are special in god's eyes.

Christians think that everyone who believes in Jeebus is special.

Christians think that Paul, the creator of Christian theology, was someone really special. Jews, along with the rest of the world, think Paul was a tosser and a heretic.

Jews have certain firmly held traditions.... the sabbath, kosher food, circumcision.

Christians have different traditions.

These differences between Jews and Christians are irreconcilable. Christians typically patronise the Jews by implying that Jews are just Christians who ain't discovered the truth yet.

PS you haven't demonstrated why you think James was a Christian.

Mark, I spend a lot of time witnessing to Jews and Gentiles, even to "Christians" who don't understand the gospel. I'm conversant with the differences between these faiths now, at this present time. I'm also conversant with the tensions between Jewish sects including the Nazarenes in the ANE.

But no Gentile or Jew I've ever met denied the facts that Jesus was a Jewish aspirant to Jewish messiah-ship. You have the right to accept that a Jew can become a Christian and still be a Jew (or not) although you have some biases (including atheism, so why should Jews or Christians take your word for it?) but a Jewish person is a Jew by race and believing in Jesus means they trust a Jewish Messiah for salvation. They will always be Jewish whatever religion they choose and most would allow them the right to a Jewish funerary ceremony besides.

I don't need to demonstrate that James was a Christian. I don't need to demonstrate he was Jewish. I don't really need to demonstrate that he was either or both. I'm merely asking you to defend why the brother of Jesus wrote an epistle before any gospels or epistles were yet written, unless he 100% believed his own brother was Messiah and King. Since I take it you accept that James and Jesus were descended from Mary and therefore Judah, and weren't even levitical priests, what were they doing writing scripture (or apocrypha)?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-05-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Mark, I spend a lot of time witnessing to Jews and Gentiles, even to "Christians" who don't understand the gospel.

It is sad that you default to viewing others with such labels, and feel the need to change them. Wouldn't you think that humans would treat other humans better if religious affiliation were out of the picture?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Timber1025's post
27-05-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't need to demonstrate that James was a Christian. I don't need to demonstrate he was Jewish. I don't really need to demonstrate that he was either or both. I'm merely asking you to defend why the brother of Jesus wrote an epistle before any gospels or epistles were yet written, unless he 100% believed his own brother was Messiah and King. Since I take it you accept that James and Jesus were descended from Mary and therefore Judah, and weren't even levitical priests, what were they doing writing scripture (or apocrypha)?

???

You talk as if James and Paul were deliberately and consciously writing "The Bible". They were not. They were writing letters (the word "epistle" is just a fancy word for "letter") to specific small groups of people. It would probably never have occurred to them that anyone would still be reading their stuff 10 years later, let alone 2000 years. If Paul actually believed what he wrote, he would be utterly astonished that the world is still here at all 2000 years later. He wrote as if the "end times" were imminent. There was no need for any more "scripture". They were simply addressing the issues of their time. You are blowing it way out of proportion by assuming that they intended it as "scripture".

To say "Why would James write an epistle unless he believed Jesus was the Messiah?" is a non sequitur. It's like asking why would I write a letter to the editor unless I believed Jesus was the Messiah -- the two things are unrelated. Plus, as Mark has pointed out, if it was all about Jesus being the Messiah, why is there absolutely no mention of that in the Epistle of James? Mark is making sense -- your replies to him are not.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Grasshopper's post
27-05-2015, 01:21 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Mark, I spend a lot of time witnessing to Jews and Gentiles, even to "Christians" who don't understand the gospel.
Oh here we friggin' go. Facepalm

Q Wrote:I'm conversant with the differences between these faiths now, at this present time.

Well then, instead of this;
Q Wrote:I don't need to demonstrate that James was a Christian.

Answer his question, little pharisee.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Kestrel's post
27-05-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-05-2015 12:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't need to demonstrate that James was a Christian. I don't need to demonstrate he was Jewish. I don't really need to demonstrate that he was either or both. I'm merely asking you to defend why the brother of Jesus wrote an epistle before any gospels or epistles were yet written, unless he 100% believed his own brother was Messiah and King. Since I take it you accept that James and Jesus were descended from Mary and therefore Judah, and weren't even levitical priests, what were they doing writing scripture (or apocrypha)?

???

You talk as if James and Paul were deliberately and consciously writing "The Bible". They were not. They were writing letters (the word "epistle" is just a fancy word for "letter") to specific small groups of people. It would probably never have occurred to them that anyone would still be reading their stuff 10 years later, let alone 2000 years. If Paul actually believed what he wrote, he would be utterly astonished that the world is still here at all 2000 years later. He wrote as if the "end times" were imminent. There was no need for any more "scripture". They were simply addressing the issues of their time. You are blowing it way out of proportion by assuming that they intended it as "scripture".

To say "Why would James write an epistle unless he believed Jesus was the Messiah?" is a non sequitur. It's like asking why would I write a letter to the editor unless I believed Jesus was the Messiah -- the two things are unrelated. Plus, as Mark has pointed out, if it was all about Jesus being the Messiah, why is there absolutely no mention of that in the Epistle of James? Mark is making sense -- your replies to him are not.

What Grasshopper said....exactly.Bowing
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
27-05-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive."

W R O N G!

The Jews believed in one god Yahweh who had no family. It is a central tenet of their faith.

Christians believe Yahweh had a son, Jeebus.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine.

Jews do not believe that their god could die.

Jews believe they have a never ending covenant with their God.

Christians believe there is a new, and different "covenant," one that replaces the Jews'.

Chritians have invented their own scripture, the new testament, which the Jews don't recognise.

Jews believe they are special in god's eyes.

Christians think that everyone who believes in Jeebus is special.

Christians think that Paul, the creator of Christian theology, was someone really special. Jews, along with the rest of the world, think Paul was a tosser and a heretic.

Jews have certain firmly held traditions.... the sabbath, kosher food, circumcision.

Christians have different traditions.

These differences between Jews and Christians are irreconcilable. Christians typically patronise the Jews by implying that Jews are just Christians who ain't discovered the truth yet.

PS you haven't demonstrated why you think James was a Christian.

Mark, I spend a lot of time witnessing to Jews and Gentiles, even to "Christians" who don't understand the gospel. I'm conversant with the differences between these faiths now, at this present time. I'm also conversant with the tensions between Jewish sects including the Nazarenes in the ANE.

But no Gentile or Jew I've ever met denied the facts that Jesus was a Jewish aspirant to Jewish messiah-ship. You have the right to accept that a Jew can become a Christian and still be a Jew (or not) although you have some biases (including atheism, so why should Jews or Christians take your word for it?) but a Jewish person is a Jew by race and believing in Jesus means they trust a Jewish Messiah for salvation. They will always be Jewish whatever religion they choose and most would allow them the right to a Jewish funerary ceremony besides.

I don't need to demonstrate that James was a Christian. I don't need to demonstrate he was Jewish. I don't really need to demonstrate that he was either or both. I'm merely asking you to defend why the brother of Jesus wrote an epistle before any gospels or epistles were yet written, unless he 100% believed his own brother was Messiah and King. Since I take it you accept that James and Jesus were descended from Mary and therefore Judah, and weren't even levitical priests, what were they doing writing scripture (or apocrypha)?

"and believing in Jesus means they trust a Jewish Messiah for salvation."

No. You don't understand the Jewish concept of the Messiah. You need to listen to this guy....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49l-g_TtGhI
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: