Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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28-05-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-05-2015 03:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Mark, I spend a lot of time witnessing to Jews and Gentiles, even to "Christians" who don't understand the gospel. I'm conversant with the differences between these faiths now, at this present time. I'm also conversant with the tensions between Jewish sects including the Nazarenes in the ANE.

But no Gentile or Jew I've ever met denied the facts that Jesus was a Jewish aspirant to Jewish messiah-ship. You have the right to accept that a Jew can become a Christian and still be a Jew (or not) although you have some biases (including atheism, so why should Jews or Christians take your word for it?) but a Jewish person is a Jew by race and believing in Jesus means they trust a Jewish Messiah for salvation. They will always be Jewish whatever religion they choose and most would allow them the right to a Jewish funerary ceremony besides.

I don't need to demonstrate that James was a Christian. I don't need to demonstrate he was Jewish. I don't really need to demonstrate that he was either or both. I'm merely asking you to defend why the brother of Jesus wrote an epistle before any gospels or epistles were yet written, unless he 100% believed his own brother was Messiah and King. Since I take it you accept that James and Jesus were descended from Mary and therefore Judah, and weren't even levitical priests, what were they doing writing scripture (or apocrypha)?

"and believing in Jesus means they trust a Jewish Messiah for salvation."

No. You don't understand the Jewish concept of the Messiah. You need to listen to this guy....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49l-g_TtGhI

I have met for four hours before with Toviah Singer, a leader of the Jews for Judaism group. We were able to agree on many things, and disagreed on others. We parted as friends. I do understand Jewish concepts of Messiah and where Jesus fits the bill.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-05-2015, 08:04 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-05-2015 12:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I don't need to demonstrate that James was a Christian. I don't need to demonstrate he was Jewish. I don't really need to demonstrate that he was either or both. I'm merely asking you to defend why the brother of Jesus wrote an epistle before any gospels or epistles were yet written, unless he 100% believed his own brother was Messiah and King. Since I take it you accept that James and Jesus were descended from Mary and therefore Judah, and weren't even levitical priests, what were they doing writing scripture (or apocrypha)?

???

You talk as if James and Paul were deliberately and consciously writing "The Bible". They were not. They were writing letters (the word "epistle" is just a fancy word for "letter") to specific small groups of people. It would probably never have occurred to them that anyone would still be reading their stuff 10 years later, let alone 2000 years. If Paul actually believed what he wrote, he would be utterly astonished that the world is still here at all 2000 years later. He wrote as if the "end times" were imminent. There was no need for any more "scripture". They were simply addressing the issues of their time. You are blowing it way out of proportion by assuming that they intended it as "scripture".

To say "Why would James write an epistle unless he believed Jesus was the Messiah?" is a non sequitur. It's like asking why would I write a letter to the editor unless I believed Jesus was the Messiah -- the two things are unrelated. Plus, as Mark has pointed out, if it was all about Jesus being the Messiah, why is there absolutely no mention of that in the Epistle of James? Mark is making sense -- your replies to him are not.

Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions. Your reply is no answer, either. Neither of you clearly understand Judaism, either, IMHO. Pious Jews will not even utter God's Name, let alone go around writing epistles:

1. James was not a Pharisee and wasn't even of the tribe of Levi. Why did he write an epistle to reinterpret law, law-keeping, and Talmudic practice, even discussing faith and salvation?

2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-05-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 08:01 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 03:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "and believing in Jesus means they trust a Jewish Messiah for salvation."

No. You don't understand the Jewish concept of the Messiah. You need to listen to this guy....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49l-g_TtGhI

I have met for four hours before with Toviah Singer, a leader of the Jews for Judaism group. We were able to agree on many things, and disagreed on others. We parted as friends. I do understand Jewish concepts of Messiah and where Jesus fits the bill.

You didn't watch the youtube video. It only goes for 7 minutes. Instead, you name drop someone and thereby completely avoid the topic we're discussing.
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28-05-2015, 05:36 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2015 07:55 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 12:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ???

You talk as if James and Paul were deliberately and consciously writing "The Bible". They were not. They were writing letters (the word "epistle" is just a fancy word for "letter") to specific small groups of people. It would probably never have occurred to them that anyone would still be reading their stuff 10 years later, let alone 2000 years. If Paul actually believed what he wrote, he would be utterly astonished that the world is still here at all 2000 years later. He wrote as if the "end times" were imminent. There was no need for any more "scripture". They were simply addressing the issues of their time. You are blowing it way out of proportion by assuming that they intended it as "scripture".

To say "Why would James write an epistle unless he believed Jesus was the Messiah?" is a non sequitur. It's like asking why would I write a letter to the editor unless I believed Jesus was the Messiah -- the two things are unrelated. Plus, as Mark has pointed out, if it was all about Jesus being the Messiah, why is there absolutely no mention of that in the Epistle of James? Mark is making sense -- your replies to him are not.

Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions. Your reply is no answer, either. Neither of you clearly understand Judaism, either, IMHO. Pious Jews will not even utter God's Name, let alone go around writing epistles:

1. James was not a Pharisee and wasn't even of the tribe of Levi. Why did he write an epistle to reinterpret law, law-keeping, and Talmudic practice, even discussing faith and salvation?

2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?

"Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions."

I can only assume the question you're asking is the following....

"would question (again) why James, a pious Jew who is Y'shua's brother, would add to the scriptures if he wasn't doing "Christian" scriptures."

You obviously didn't read grasshopper's eloquent reply. I'll try again. Read the following slowly. James was not writing Christian scripture. He wasn't a Christian. He was just writing a letter. It just happens that in the fourth century this letter was added in to the Christian Bible. So James was not "adding to the Scriptures," and he wasn't "doing" anything Christian.
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28-05-2015, 05:57 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2015 07:50 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 12:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ???

You talk as if James and Paul were deliberately and consciously writing "The Bible". They were not. They were writing letters (the word "epistle" is just a fancy word for "letter") to specific small groups of people. It would probably never have occurred to them that anyone would still be reading their stuff 10 years later, let alone 2000 years. If Paul actually believed what he wrote, he would be utterly astonished that the world is still here at all 2000 years later. He wrote as if the "end times" were imminent. There was no need for any more "scripture". They were simply addressing the issues of their time. You are blowing it way out of proportion by assuming that they intended it as "scripture".

To say "Why would James write an epistle unless he believed Jesus was the Messiah?" is a non sequitur. It's like asking why would I write a letter to the editor unless I believed Jesus was the Messiah -- the two things are unrelated. Plus, as Mark has pointed out, if it was all about Jesus being the Messiah, why is there absolutely no mention of that in the Epistle of James? Mark is making sense -- your replies to him are not.

Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions. Your reply is no answer, either. Neither of you clearly understand Judaism, either, IMHO. Pious Jews will not even utter God's Name, let alone go around writing epistles:

1. James was not a Pharisee and wasn't even of the tribe of Levi. Why did he write an epistle to reinterpret law, law-keeping, and Talmudic practice, even discussing faith and salvation?

2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?

"2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?"

You've got yourself in a real muddle here. Once again, read my answer very slowly and digest the facts one at a time...
- it is nearly universally accepted that James wrote before the gospels were written. James died in 62 CE. The gospels were all written after 70 CE.
- James may have had a brother named Jesus. This brother may have died in the 30s.
- James writes nothing about what this Jesus said or did. No miracles, no resurrection. If your brother had walked on water, turned water into wine, raised the dead, been executed and then risen from the dead, there would not be much else to write about. James would be jubilant, and telling everybody. James mentions none of this.
- the reason that James doesn't talk about his now famous brother and his now famous brother's exploits is because these legendary myths had not been invented yet. Even if they had been written when James wrote his letter, James would've known these stories were bullshit anyway. James probably thought of his long departed brother only as an executed zealot.

I suggested you go back and read the book of James. You haven't done that have you? It is only five pages long.

Your question makes no sense. James did not need to think that his brother was the Christ to have written what he did, as James was only telling his fellow Jews to obey the law.

Re "wouldn't his own brother know?"

I've got no idea what you mean here. James's own brother (I assume you mean
Jesus) was dead.
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28-05-2015, 06:10 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 12:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ???

You talk as if James and Paul were deliberately and consciously writing "The Bible". They were not. They were writing letters (the word "epistle" is just a fancy word for "letter") to specific small groups of people. It would probably never have occurred to them that anyone would still be reading their stuff 10 years later, let alone 2000 years. If Paul actually believed what he wrote, he would be utterly astonished that the world is still here at all 2000 years later. He wrote as if the "end times" were imminent. There was no need for any more "scripture". They were simply addressing the issues of their time. You are blowing it way out of proportion by assuming that they intended it as "scripture".

To say "Why would James write an epistle unless he believed Jesus was the Messiah?" is a non sequitur. It's like asking why would I write a letter to the editor unless I believed Jesus was the Messiah -- the two things are unrelated. Plus, as Mark has pointed out, if it was all about Jesus being the Messiah, why is there absolutely no mention of that in the Epistle of James? Mark is making sense -- your replies to him are not.

Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions. Your reply is no answer, either. Neither of you clearly understand Judaism, either, IMHO. Pious Jews will not even utter God's Name, let alone go around writing epistles:

1. James was not a Pharisee and wasn't even of the tribe of Levi. Why did he write an epistle to reinterpret law, law-keeping, and Talmudic practice, even discussing faith and salvation?

2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?

"James was not a Pharisee and wasn't even of the tribe of Levi."

Agreed. Your point is what?

"Why did he write an epistle to reinterpret law, law-keeping, and Talmudic practice, even discussing faith and salvation?"

James did not reinterpret the law. He adhered to it strictly. He did discuss faith. One can make the argument James had heard Paul's prattle about faith and rejected it out right as nonsense.

You don't need to be a Pharisee to discuss Scripture. James was the leader of his own sect, a sect within Judaism, and as such he discussed what Scripture meant.

Where does James discuss salvation?
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28-05-2015, 08:05 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-05-2015 12:10 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ???

You talk as if James and Paul were deliberately and consciously writing "The Bible". They were not. They were writing letters (the word "epistle" is just a fancy word for "letter") to specific small groups of people. It would probably never have occurred to them that anyone would still be reading their stuff 10 years later, let alone 2000 years. If Paul actually believed what he wrote, he would be utterly astonished that the world is still here at all 2000 years later. He wrote as if the "end times" were imminent. There was no need for any more "scripture". They were simply addressing the issues of their time. You are blowing it way out of proportion by assuming that they intended it as "scripture".

To say "Why would James write an epistle unless he believed Jesus was the Messiah?" is a non sequitur. It's like asking why would I write a letter to the editor unless I believed Jesus was the Messiah -- the two things are unrelated. Plus, as Mark has pointed out, if it was all about Jesus being the Messiah, why is there absolutely no mention of that in the Epistle of James? Mark is making sense -- your replies to him are not.

Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions. Your reply is no answer, either. Neither of you clearly understand Judaism, either, IMHO. Pious Jews will not even utter God's Name, let alone go around writing epistles:

1. James was not a Pharisee and wasn't even of the tribe of Levi. Why did he write an epistle to reinterpret law, law-keeping, and Talmudic practice, even discussing faith and salvation?

2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?

"Pious Jews will not even utter God's Name,"

Mmmmmmm. What has that got to do with grasshopper and I not understanding Judaism?

"l[i]et alone go around writing epistles:"[/i]

epistle |ɪˈpɪs(ə)l|
noun formal or humorous
a letter. activists firing off angry epistles.
• a poem or other literary work in the form of a letter or series of letters.

We have both told you that James wrote a letter. What is your problem with the idea that James wrote a letter? What has this got to do with neither of us understanding Judaism?
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28-05-2015, 08:20 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-05-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(26-05-2015 03:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "The two beliefs aren't mutually exclusive."

W R O N G!

The Jews believed in one god Yahweh who had no family. It is a central tenet of their faith.

Christians believe Yahweh had a son, Jeebus.

Jews do not believe that Jesus was divine.

Jews do not believe that their god could die.

Jews believe they have a never ending covenant with their God.

Christians believe there is a new, and different "covenant," one that replaces the Jews'.

Chritians have invented their own scripture, the new testament, which the Jews don't recognise.

Jews believe they are special in god's eyes.

Christians think that everyone who believes in Jeebus is special.

Christians think that Paul, the creator of Christian theology, was someone really special. Jews, along with the rest of the world, think Paul was a tosser and a heretic.

Jews have certain firmly held traditions.... the sabbath, kosher food, circumcision.

Christians have different traditions.

These differences between Jews and Christians are irreconcilable. Christians typically patronise the Jews by implying that Jews are just Christians who ain't discovered the truth yet.

PS you haven't demonstrated why you think James was a Christian.

Mark, I spend a lot of time witnessing to Jews and Gentiles, even to "Christians" who don't understand the gospel. I'm conversant with the differences between these faiths now, at this present time. I'm also conversant with the tensions between Jewish sects including the Nazarenes in the ANE.

But no Gentile or Jew I've ever met denied the facts that Jesus was a Jewish aspirant to Jewish messiah-ship. You have the right to accept that a Jew can become a Christian and still be a Jew (or not) although you have some biases (including atheism, so why should Jews or Christians take your word for it?) but a Jewish person is a Jew by race and believing in Jesus means they trust a Jewish Messiah for salvation. They will always be Jewish whatever religion they choose and most would allow them the right to a Jewish funerary ceremony besides.

I don't need to demonstrate that James was a Christian. I don't need to demonstrate he was Jewish. I don't really need to demonstrate that he was either or both. I'm merely asking you to defend why the brother of Jesus wrote an epistle before any gospels or epistles were yet written, unless he 100% believed his own brother was Messiah and King. Since I take it you accept that James and Jesus were descended from Mary and therefore Judah, and weren't even levitical priests, what were they doing writing scripture (or apocrypha)?

"but a Jewish person is a Jew by race"

Here is the dictionary definition of "Jew"
Jew |dʒuː|
noun
a member of the people and cultural community whose traditional religion is Judaism and who trace their origins to the ancient Hebrew people of Israel.

How, then, can you write
"They will always be Jewish whatever religion they choose" ?

And how can you possibly justify this
"believing in Jesus means they trust a Jewish Messiah for salvation." ?
Jews do not "believe in Jesus" and do not believe in "salvation."

I think it is becoming very clear that YOU do not understand Judaism.
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28-05-2015, 08:37 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2015 09:07 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 05:36 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "would question (again) why James, a pious Jew who is Y'shua's brother, would add to the scriptures if he wasn't doing "Christian" scriptures."

Timothy said "All scripture was *god breathed*" yet there was no canon yet. Oops. At the time it meant "pious writing" (ie drivel).
It didn't mean then (before there even WAS a canon) what it meant later. James was not writing what today is thought of as "scripture". The fact that you can find some random Jew that agrees with your fundamentalist nonsense is utterly irrelevant.
Do take a class some day. The JOB of the "anointed one" (the messiah) was to re-establish the Kingdom as the "anointed kings" once had ruled over in the mythical past in Jewish history. Jebus failed utterly in that task, and there were many others during his time, before his time, and AFTER his time that were proposed as messiahs. He was not seen as THE messiah, and only apocalyptic Jews were even looking for one, (just as most today are not).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-05-2015, 08:59 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 05:57 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(28-05-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions. Your reply is no answer, either. Neither of you clearly understand Judaism, either, IMHO. Pious Jews will not even utter God's Name, let alone go around writing epistles:

1. James was not a Pharisee and wasn't even of the tribe of Levi. Why did he write an epistle to reinterpret law, law-keeping, and Talmudic practice, even discussing faith and salvation?

2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?

"2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?"

You've got yourself in a real muddle here. Once again, read my answer very slowly and digest the facts one at a time...
- it is nearly universally accepted that James wrote before the gospels were written. James died in 62 CE. The gospels were all written after 70 CE.
- James may have had a brother named Jesus. This brother may have died in the 30s.
- James writes nothing about what this Jesus said or did. No miracles, no resurrection. If your brother had walked on water, turned water into wine, raised the dead, been executed and then risen from the dead, there would not be much else to write about. James would be jubilant, and telling everybody. James mentions none of this.
- the reason that James doesn't talk about his now famous brother and his now famous brother's exploits is because these legendary myths had not been invented yet. Even if they had been written when James wrote his letter, James would've known these stories were bullshit anyway. James probably thought of his long departed brother only as an executed zealot.

I suggested you go back and read the book of James. You haven't done that have you? It is only five pages long.

Your question makes no sense. James did not need to think that his brother was the Christ to have written what he did, as James was only telling his fellow Jews to obey the law.

Re "wouldn't his own brother know?"

I've got no idea what you mean here. James's own brother (I assume you mean
Jesus) was dead.

PS I did not claim that James wrote before the other epistles. I only claimed James wrote before the gospels. No one knows for sure when the other epistles were written
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