Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-05-2015, 01:11 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 08:20 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I think it is becoming very clear that YOU do not understand Judaism.
Aye.
Nor does he understand the basics of his own proclaimed beliefs.

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Kestrel's post
29-05-2015, 01:27 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Q Wrote:Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions. Your reply is no answer, either.
You're a proclaimed christian on an atheist forum. No one here owes you anything.
Answer the man's question.

I'll refresh your memory :
Mark Fulton Wrote:Show me why you think James was a Christian.

Where does James mention the resurrection (the central tenet) of Christianity? The miracles? The parables?

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Kestrel's post
29-05-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(29-05-2015 01:27 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  
Q Wrote:Unfortunately, Mark is yet to answer my questions. Your reply is no answer, either.
You're a proclaimed christian on an atheist forum. No one here owes you anything.
Answer the man's question.

I'll refresh your memory :
Mark Fulton Wrote:Show me why you think James was a Christian.

Where does James mention the resurrection (the central tenet) of Christianity? The miracles? The parables?

We await an answer.

Men and women of the forum... this is a very important discussion. We are waiting for a Christian apologist to explain why the book of James, probably written by Jesus' own brother, mentions nothing of the miracles, parables, or the resurrection.

I say the reason is that all the bullshit about Jesus had not been invented yet i.e. the gospels hadn't been written, when James wrote this letter. We know James died in 62 CE, and the gospels were written post 70 CE. So if Jesus actually did all he is said to have done in the gospels, James, his own brother would have known about it, and he quite obviously doesn't.

I therefore propose that Jesus either
- didn't exist
- or was just an ordinary Jewish guy who probably got knocked over by the Romans for being a zealot.

Q, we await your answer. The legitimacy of Christianity is resting on your shoulders!
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-05-2015, 04:53 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(29-05-2015 04:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(29-05-2015 01:27 AM)Kestrel Wrote:  You're a proclaimed christian on an atheist forum. No one here owes you anything.
Answer the man's question.

I'll refresh your memory :

We await an answer.

Men and women of the forum... this is a very important discussion. We are waiting for a Christian apologist to explain why the book of James, probably written by Jesus' own brother, mentions nothing of the miracles, parables, or the resurrection.

I say the reason is that all the bullshit about Jesus had not been invented yet i.e. the gospels hadn't been written, when James wrote this letter. We know James died in 62 CE, and the gospels were written post 70 CE. So if Jesus actually did all he is said to have done in the gospels, James, his own brother would have known about it, and he quite obviously doesn't.

I therefore propose that Jesus either
- didn't exist
- or was just an ordinary Jewish guy who probably got knocked over by the Romans for being a zealot.

Q, we await your answer. The legitimacy of Christianity is resting on your shoulders!

I have a third proposal: Whoever wrote the epistle attributed to James may or may not have been named James, and may or may not have been related to Jesus in any way. He may have been just some preacher who wanted to push his own views, and jumped on the "Christian" bandwagon in the process (or not -- the two mentions of "Lord Jesus Christ" may have been interpolated later, like so much else in the New Testament). In short, Q's argument, bad as it is, assumes that the author of this epistle was the brother of Jesus. Absent that assumption, the argument is pointless, and we really have no way of knowing who wrote this letter. So this is really a lot of smoke being blown over nothing.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-05-2015, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2015 05:12 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(29-05-2015 04:53 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(29-05-2015 04:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  We await an answer.

Men and women of the forum... this is a very important discussion. We are waiting for a Christian apologist to explain why the book of James, probably written by Jesus' own brother, mentions nothing of the miracles, parables, or the resurrection.

I say the reason is that all the bullshit about Jesus had not been invented yet i.e. the gospels hadn't been written, when James wrote this letter. We know James died in 62 CE, and the gospels were written post 70 CE. So if Jesus actually did all he is said to have done in the gospels, James, his own brother would have known about it, and he quite obviously doesn't.

I therefore propose that Jesus either
- didn't exist
- or was just an ordinary Jewish guy who probably got knocked over by the Romans for being a zealot.

Q, we await your answer. The legitimacy of Christianity is resting on your shoulders!

I have a third proposal: Whoever wrote the epistle attributed to James may or may not have been named James, and may or may not have been related to Jesus in any way. He may have been just some preacher who wanted to push his own views, and jumped on the "Christian" bandwagon in the process (or not -- the two mentions of "Lord Jesus Christ" may have been interpolated later, like so much else in the New Testament). In short, Q's argument, bad as it is, assumes that the author of this epistle was the brother of Jesus. Absent that assumption, the argument is pointless, and we really have no way of knowing who wrote this letter. So this is really a lot of smoke being blown over nothing.

True.

Yet Christians universally claim that the book was written by James, Jesus' brother.

Even if it wasn't written by James, it was written by a very early and obviously Jewish source, someone who knew nothing of, or someone who ignored, the gospels.

One wonders why the church fathers would have included it in the Canon if there wasn't some tangible connection to a Jesus. It certainly doesn't promote what became Christianity (because it contradicts Paul)
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-06-2015, 06:07 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-05-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. Why did James write, according to Mark Fulton, prior to any gospels or other epistles, if his brother, Jesus, was not the Christ and performed no true miracles? Wouldn't his own brother know?

Of course you mean 'half-brother'. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
01-06-2015, 12:08 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
James wasn't just "writing a letter". He was serving as halachic authority on the Law! Anyone who knows anything about Judaism in the ANE would recognize that he would need to be a Pharisee to not only teach, but to teach his "way" (halachah) to other Jews... or He had seen the risen Messiah.

Your comments about salvation and the Jewish Messiah are far off the mark. Messiah is coming to remove the olam hazeh and usher in the olam habah. You are representing modern revisionist and secularist Judaism as if it is both ancient Judaism in the times of Y'shua and modern, religious Judaism per the Orthodox, Lubavitch sect, etc. No.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-06-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-06-2015 12:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  James wasn't just "writing a letter". He was serving as halachic authority on the Law! Anyone who knows anything about Judaism in the ANE would recognize that he would need to be a Pharisee to not only teach, but to teach his "way" (halachah) to other Jews... or He had seen the risen Messiah.
Wow.
You're an absolute tragedy regarding scripture.
Nothing new here.Thumbsup

Q Wrote:Your comments about salvation and the Jewish Messiah are far off the mark. Messiah is coming to remove the olam hazeh and usher in the olam habah. You are representing modern revisionist and secularist Judaism as if it is both ancient Judaism in the times of Y'shua and modern, religious Judaism per the Orthodox, Lubavitch sect, etc. No.

Psst! You're not speaking to a believer. Meaning....pay attention. ... the atheist isn't required nor in this case even remotely interested in your understanding or beliefs. Other than too gleefully beat you with it. Take your lumps, jr.

Oh and you still haven't answered Mark Fulton's question. No

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Kestrel's post
01-06-2015, 10:02 PM (This post was last modified: 02-06-2015 01:56 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-06-2015 12:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  James wasn't just "writing a letter". He was serving as halachic authority on the Law! Anyone who knows anything about Judaism in the ANE would recognize that he would need to be a Pharisee to not only teach, but to teach his "way" (halachah) to other Jews... or He had seen the risen Messiah.

Your comments about salvation and the Jewish Messiah are far off the mark. Messiah is coming to remove the olam hazeh and usher in the olam habah. You are representing modern revisionist and secularist Judaism as if it is both ancient Judaism in the times of Y'shua and modern, religious Judaism per the Orthodox, Lubavitch sect, etc. No.

Q, you write

"Anyone who knows anything about Judaism in the ANE would recognize that he would need to be a Pharisee to not only teach,"

Earlier you wrote

"James was not a Pharisee and wasn't even of the tribe of Levi."

So....um....was James a pharisee or was he not?

You then, for no discernable reason, state....

"or He had seen the risen Messiah."

HuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuhHuh

Have you been sniffing incense?

You still haven't answered my question about why you think James says nothing about his now famous bro. No miracles, no teachings, no rising from the dead. Zilch. Bugger all. Zero.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Mark Fulton's post
02-06-2015, 02:12 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-06-2015 12:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  James wasn't just "writing a letter". He was serving as halachic authority on the Law! Anyone who knows anything about Judaism in the ANE would recognize that he would need to be a Pharisee to not only teach, but to teach his "way" (halachah) to other Jews... or He had seen the risen Messiah.

Your comments about salvation and the Jewish Messiah are far off the mark. Messiah is coming to remove the olam hazeh and usher in the olam habah. You are representing modern revisionist and secularist Judaism as if it is both ancient Judaism in the times of Y'shua and modern, religious Judaism per the Orthodox, Lubavitch sect, etc. No.

"Olam Hazeh (oh-lahm haz-ZEH) n. phr. This present age; this world."

"Olam Ha-Ba: The Afterlife

Level: Basic

• Judaism believes in an afterlife but has little dogma about it
• The Jewish afterlife is called Olam Ha-Ba (The World to Come)
• Resurrection and reincarnation are within the range of traditional Jewish belief
• Temporary (but not eternal) punishment after death is within traditional belief
Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist."

Messiah (Hebrew: מָשִׁיחַ‎; mashiah, moshiah, mashiach, or moshiach, "anointed [one]") is a term used in the Hebrew Bible to describe priests and kings, who were traditionally anointed with holy anointing oil as described in Exodus 30:22-25. For example, Cyrus the Great, the king of Persia, although not a Hebrew, is referred to as "God's mashiach" in the Bible.

Well I've learned three new words today.

While I can make sense of the cut and pastes above, I have no idea what Q is trying to say.

Is he trying to say that the Messiah is going to kill everyone?

Q... I make no pretence at being an expert in Judaism. I do however listen to what those who are say. You don't appear to understand the Jewish concept of the Messiah. I'll try again....you need to listen to this guy....then talk, OK?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49l-g_TtGhI
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: