Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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03-06-2015, 02:42 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-06-2015 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 04:41 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "I'm conversant with ancient and modern Jewish thought. I spend--guaranteed--hundreds more hours a year actually talking to Jewish people than you do about sin, salvation, Heaven, the next world, etc."

If that is true, then it may be that you have something worthwhile and interesting to add to the conversation. Why don't you do that? Why don't you be a bit more careful about what you write so that people have a chance to, and reason to, respect you? For example, you write

"but please don't inject presentist notions into the Bible."

I suspect you know what you mean, yet you haven't respected your readers by giving them the faintest idea what you are on about.

A second example is that you write...

"However, taking your premise at face value, that James was written before the gospels, does not explain why James saw fit as a non-Pharisee/non-Qumran mystic etc. to write about the Law. He must have believed in Messiah."

What da fuck is a "non-Qumran mystic etc." ?

Seriously, if you wrote this in a high school essay, it would merit a fail.

You then write
"He must have believed in Messiah." What, pray tell, is the connection between a "non-Qumran mystic etc" and believing in (?a ?the ) "Messiah" (?Jeebus) ?

Your statements make no sense to anybody (except maybe yourself) and this is why you get shit heaped on you. I'm not sure if you're aware that Christians have a reputation for being, on average, rather stupid, and you are doing nothing to change that reputation.

Wow, you are being rude now. I'll answer you anyway, but please lighten up.

I'm aware that the levitical, legitimate line was usurped by Roman puppets. James was not a religious leader of the people. He was neither a priest nor pharisee. He was not a Qumran'er. So, why write an epistle? Pretty simple question.

I think the Occam's razor answer is he experienced either the Messiah or a Messianic pretender.

I'm almost speechless.

You have addressed none of my arguments, but have just restated your unexplained and illogical opinion.

I've given you 6 references to James being a religious leader. I could have given more. You have discussed none of them.

The fact is James wrote a letter to his fellow Jews which discussed the Jewish law. It is in your bible. If James had "experienced the Messiah" he would have said so in his letter. If he had "experienced" a "Messianic pretender" he may or may not have said so in his letter. How have you jumped to the conclusion he knew a Messiah? Who was this Messiah you claim James knew?
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03-06-2015, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2015 06:46 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-06-2015 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(02-06-2015 02:24 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Anyone who knows anything about Judaism in the ANE would recognize that he would need to be a Pharisee to not only teach, but to teach his "way" (halachah) to other Jews... "

Mmmmmmmm.

Your Jeebus was a teacher, right?

So Jeebus was a pharisee then? Facepalm Why would Jeebus say

“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ...woe to you, blind guides...You blind fools!... You blind men!... You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?” (Matt. 23:13–34, NJB.)

A teacher was called rabbi. Jesus wasn't a religious leader of the people. This we know. Now, please explain your reasons why James felt free, not even being a rabbi, to teach the Law.

"Jesus wasn't a religious leader of the people."

Wow. That's a very peculiar statement from a Christian. I will ask you to explain yourself, but I doubt I will get an answer, let alone a coherent one.

"Now, please explain your reasons why James felt free, not even being a rabbi, to teach the Law."

I already have. See post 304, which you have completely ignored. At least I pay you the respect of reading what you write. James was the leader of the Nazarene sect, and as such was a respected figure. He was both a political and a religious leader ( a rabbi). If you disagree, you are obliged to say why...not just restate your opinion like a kindergarten child.
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03-06-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-06-2015 03:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 11:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  A teacher was called rabbi. Jesus wasn't a religious leader of the people. This we know. Now, please explain your reasons why James felt free, not even being a rabbi, to teach the Law.

Jesus wasn't a religious leader of the people.

Wow. That's a very peculiar statement from a Christian. I will ask you to explain yourself, but I doubt I will get an answer, let alone a coherent one.

"Now, please explain your reasons why James felt free, not even being a rabbi, to teach the Law."

I already have. See post 304, which you have completely ignored. At least I pay you the respect of reading what you write. James was the leader of the Nazarene sect, and as such was a respected figure. He was both a political and a religious leader ( a rabbi). If you disagree, you are obliged to say why...not just restate your opinion like a kindergarten child.

Welcome to Q's world, he's really good at ignoring points, not getting a point, misunderstanding your point and completely ignoring evidence when it refutes his worldview.

When all else fails, he'll change the subject, refuse to make a clear point, go on tangents and completely dodge the truth at every turn.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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03-06-2015, 03:26 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2015 02:13 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(01-06-2015 12:08 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  James wasn't just "writing a letter". He was serving as halachic authority on the Law! Anyone who knows anything about Judaism in the ANE would recognize that he would need to be a Pharisee to not only teach, but to teach his "way" (halachah) to other Jews... or He had seen the risen Messiah.

Your comments about salvation and the Jewish Messiah are far off the mark. Messiah is coming to remove the olam hazeh and usher in the olam habah. You are representing modern revisionist and secularist Judaism as if it is both ancient Judaism in the times of Y'shua and modern, religious Judaism per the Orthodox, Lubavitch sect, etc. No.

"Anyone who knows anything about Judaism in the ANE would recognize that he would need to be a Pharisee to not only teach, but to teach his "way" (halachah) to other Jews..."

This is plainly incorrect. It appears to be the source of your strange ideas.

My comments on the Nazarenes, who were Essenes with their own interpretation of the Jewish law, mentioned in other posts, should have stimulated your interest.

You need to know about them.

The Nazarenes

Yeshua was a Nazarene, as stated in the Bible: Acts referred to

“Jesus Christ the Nazarene”(Acts 2:22, 3:6, 4:10, 6:14, 22:8, 26:9, NJB.)

Most Christians assume the term “Nazarene” referred to the fact that Jesus came from the village of Nazareth. This was, after all, what Matthew claimed, (Matt. 2:23) but Nazareth the place was probably not the real origin of the term. On (almost) every occasion that Jesus was referred to as being “of Nazareth,” the real meaning is “the Nazarene.” Nazareth the village probably did not exist in Yeshua’s time.

The Bible made it clear that the term “Nazarene” referred to a sect, not a place, when in the book of Acts, Paul is accused of being a Nazarene.

“The plain truth is that we find this man a perfect pest; he stirs up trouble among Jews the world over, and is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect.” (Acts 24:5, NJB.)

An important religious sect would not have been named after an obscure Galilean village. Calling him Jesus “of Nazareth” was a ploy to distract from his sectarian affiliations.

Hugh Schonfield, who devoted his life to studying Judaism and Yeshua, claims Nazarenism was an ancient version of Judaism. ( http://archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A “Hugh J.Schonfield” AND subject%3A “Nazarenes” ). He thought that the original founder of the Nazarene sect might have been a Jewish-Arabian prophet named Essa in approximately 400 BCE. So, if Schonfield was right, the Nazarenes were already well established in Jesus’ time.

Many eminent scholars have linked the Nazarenes with the Essene sect at Qumran. One might consider the Nazarene sect a strongly developed messianic form of “Essenism.” ( http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/TrimmNazars.htm0 ). http://www.essene.com/What is a Nazarene.htm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxEJHO8KIXY

John the Baptist, Yeshua’s family, disciples and followers were all Nazarenes. The “pillars” Paul refers to (James, Peter, and John) in his second letter to the Galatians, were the leaders and key figures of this group after Yeshua’s death. They were Jews, not Christians. They practiced circumcision, believed in baptism, and were strict about the Sabbath. They were vegetarians who did not approve of the slaughter of animals, either for food or sacrifice. They developed their own “Halacha,” which was their interpretation of the Torah. The Nazarenes were true believers in the power and glory of Israel, saw themselves as God’s chosen people, and were vehemently opposed to the Romans. They were zealots, willing to take on the Romans, which was why the Roman world considered a Nazarene “a pest” who “stirs up trouble among Jews the world over.”

The Nazarenes considered the temple was the house of God, but were opposed to the Sadducees who they regarded as Roman collaborators. They had a broad base of support among Jews through- out Judea and much of the Roman Empire. Many ordinary Jews and Pharisees would have considered the Nazarenes brothers in the struggle against Rome.

Yeshua became the Nazarene chief after John the Baptist’s death, and he remained in charge for (probably) a few years. Leadership was inherited from blood relations, which explains it passing from John the Baptist to Yeshua, and after Yeshua’s death, on to James, his brother.

James and the other Nazarenes did not think Yeshua was the Son of God, or that Yeshua needed to die to save anyone from their sins. ( http://www.petahtikvah.com/Articles/nazarenes.htm ). Nazarenes believed Yeshua was a (human) prophet who they hoped could be Israel’s messiah.

We read very little about this group in the pages of history because mainly Gentiles wrote that history, and the early Christians ignored the Nazarenes, or wrote them off as heretics, or tried to claim that some of the Nazarenes believed in the divinity of Christ.

The modern reader, and particularly you, Q, is best served by having an interest in the Nazarene’s story.
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03-06-2015, 06:17 PM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2015 08:31 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-06-2015 03:13 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 03:00 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Jesus wasn't a religious leader of the people.

Wow. That's a very peculiar statement from a Christian. I will ask you to explain yourself, but I doubt I will get an answer, let alone a coherent one.

"Now, please explain your reasons why James felt free, not even being a rabbi, to teach the Law."

I already have. See post 304, which you have completely ignored. At least I pay you the respect of reading what you write. James was the leader of the Nazarene sect, and as such was a respected figure. He was both a political and a religious leader ( a rabbi). If you disagree, you are obliged to say why...not just restate your opinion like a kindergarten child.

Welcome to Q's world, he's really good at ignoring points, not getting a point, misunderstanding your point and completely ignoring evidence when it refutes his worldview.

When all else fails, he'll change the subject, refuse to make a clear point, go on tangents and completely dodge the truth at every turn.

I'm relieved somebody else is following this.

Has anyone understood his jump in logic from...."James wasn't a pharisee" to "James must have 'experienced' 'Messiah'" ?
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03-06-2015, 06:47 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Clap Bravo Mark
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03-06-2015, 06:50 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-06-2015 06:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Has anyone understood his jump in logic from...."James wasn't a pharisee" to "James must have 'experienced' 'Messiah' ?

I think I see your problem. You are looking for logic in his arguments.
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04-06-2015, 02:51 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-06-2015 06:50 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 06:17 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Has anyone understood his jump in logic from...."James wasn't a pharisee" to "James must have 'experienced' 'Messiah' ?

I think I see your problem. You are looking for logic in his arguments.
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Mmmmmm. The profundity of your observation is sinking in. Thanks!
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04-06-2015, 08:20 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(03-06-2015 02:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 11:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Wow, you are being rude now. I'll answer you anyway, but please lighten up.

I'm aware that the levitical, legitimate line was usurped by Roman puppets. James was not a religious leader of the people. He was neither a priest nor pharisee. He was not a Qumran'er. So, why write an epistle? Pretty simple question.

I think the Occam's razor answer is he experienced either the Messiah or a Messianic pretender.

I'm almost speechless.

You have addressed none of my arguments, but have just restated your unexplained and illogical opinion.

I've given you 6 references to James being a religious leader. I could have given more. You have discussed none of them.

The fact is James wrote a letter to his fellow Jews which discussed the Jewish law. It is in your bible. If James had "experienced the Messiah" he would have said so in his letter. If he had "experienced" a "Messianic pretender" he may or may not have said so in his letter. How have you jumped to the conclusion he knew a Messiah? Who was this Messiah you claim James knew?

Why are you speechless, Mark? Because I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, was the son of a carpenter, not a rabbi's son, and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?

I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul, that the gospels and Paul didn't exist in the first century as the Bible portrays them to exist, but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law to a sect that didn't exist? I think, rather, you are making a case that James should be apocrypha and not canon, but "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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04-06-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(04-06-2015 08:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 02:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm almost speechless.

You have addressed none of my arguments, but have just restated your unexplained and illogical opinion.

I've given you 6 references to James being a religious leader. I could have given more. You have discussed none of them.

The fact is James wrote a letter to his fellow Jews which discussed the Jewish law. It is in your bible. If James had "experienced the Messiah" he would have said so in his letter. If he had "experienced" a "Messianic pretender" he may or may not have said so in his letter. How have you jumped to the conclusion he knew a Messiah? Who was this Messiah you claim James knew?

Why are you speechless, Mark? Because I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, was the son of a carpenter, not a rabbi's son, and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?

I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul, that the gospels and Paul didn't exist in the first century as the Bible portrays them to exist, but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law to a sect that didn't exist? I think, rather, you are making a case that James should be apocrypha and not canon, but "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

Hey you are ignoring the mark post above. Please answer the Mark post #314.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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