Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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04-06-2015, 02:49 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2015 04:06 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(04-06-2015 08:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 02:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm almost speechless.

You have addressed none of my arguments, but have just restated your unexplained and illogical opinion.

I've given you 6 references to James being a religious leader. I could have given more. You have discussed none of them.

The fact is James wrote a letter to his fellow Jews which discussed the Jewish law. It is in your bible. If James had "experienced the Messiah" he would have said so in his letter. If he had "experienced" a "Messianic pretender" he may or may not have said so in his letter. How have you jumped to the conclusion he knew a Messiah? Who was this Messiah you claim James knew?

Why are you speechless, Mark? Because I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, not a rabbi's son, and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?

I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul, that the gospels and Paul didn't exist in the first century as the Bible portrays them to exist, but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law to a sect that didn't exist? I think, rather, you are making a case that James should be apocrypha and not canon, but "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

Ok. Big breath. I'll go through it slowly with you again. I'll assume you are genuinely interested. I must point something out first though, for your own benefit. You don't know much about the real history here, and what you do know is only what you have assumed, and what you have read in your bible. That makes it hard for you to absorb anything new. You are also not willing to be open minded because you feel you have to be right, either because of personal pride or because you want to defend Christianity. You need to clear your mind of your preconceptions...if you don't you will never learn anything. I am not telling you this to belittle you, or to make myself look good, but to help you discover truth.

"I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories"

"My" theories are 95% the ideas of multiple respected historians, assimilated by myself. I often provide links for your benefit. You have Google at your command. Use them!

That doesn't mean that everything I say is definitely the way things were, but you owe it to yourself to explore the history and take advantage of the work I have done for you.

"I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah..."

James wrote a six page letter which is in your Bible. I'm not sure if you have ever read it. Read it! In this letter this is nothing about the author ever having met a Messiah. The author also says nothing about a miracle working, parable preaching, resurrected son of God. Please read the preceding two sentences again, slowly.
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04-06-2015, 03:05 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2015 03:58 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(04-06-2015 08:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 02:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm almost speechless.

You have addressed none of my arguments, but have just restated your unexplained and illogical opinion.

I've given you 6 references to James being a religious leader. I could have given more. You have discussed none of them.

The fact is James wrote a letter to his fellow Jews which discussed the Jewish law. It is in your bible. If James had "experienced the Messiah" he would have said so in his letter. If he had "experienced" a "Messianic pretender" he may or may not have said so in his letter. How have you jumped to the conclusion he knew a Messiah? Who was this Messiah you claim James knew?

Why are you speechless, Mark? Because I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, was the son of a carpenter, not a rabbi's son, and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?

I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul, that the gospels and Paul didn't exist in the first century as the Bible portrays them to exist, but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law to a sect that didn't exist? I think, rather, you are making a case that James should be apocrypha and not canon, but "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

"was the son of a carpenter, not a rabbi's son,"

I never said James was the son of a carpenter. I never said he was the son of a rabbi, or not the son of a rabbi, either.

"...and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist"

Post 314, written by me, is a half page explaining the existence of the Nazarenes. How can you possibly claim that I think they didn't exist?

"...a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?"

The gospels were probably first written in the decades after the first Jewish war 66 to 70. I did not say they weren't to be written for centuries to come. In any case, the existence of your gospels is unrelated to the existence of the Nazarenes.
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04-06-2015, 03:14 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2015 03:51 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(04-06-2015 08:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 02:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm almost speechless.

You have addressed none of my arguments, but have just restated your unexplained and illogical opinion.

I've given you 6 references to James being a religious leader. I could have given more. You have discussed none of them.

The fact is James wrote a letter to his fellow Jews which discussed the Jewish law. It is in your bible. If James had "experienced the Messiah" he would have said so in his letter. If he had "experienced" a "Messianic pretender" he may or may not have said so in his letter. How have you jumped to the conclusion he knew a Messiah? Who was this Messiah you claim James knew?

Why are you speechless, Mark? Because I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, was the son of a carpenter, not a rabbi's son, and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?

I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul, that the gospels and Paul didn't exist in the first century as the Bible portrays them to exist, but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law to a sect that didn't exist? I think, rather, you are making a case that James should be apocrypha and not canon, but "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

"I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles..."

Was Jesus a Miracle Worker?

“Is it more probable that nature should go out of her course, or that a man should tell a lie? We have never seen, in our time, nature go out of her course; but we have good reason to believe that millions of lies have been told in the same time; it is, therefore, at least millions to one, that the reporter of a miracle tells a lie.”
(Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794)

Cults that had existed for hundreds or thousands of years before Jesus all had miracle performing prodigies. Isis, an Egyptian goddess, healed the sick. Poseidon, the Greek god of the sea, walked on water, as did Horus, an Egyptian deity. Dionysus, the Greek god of the grape harvest, turned water into wine. Aesclepius, the Greek god of medicine and healing, raised the dead. Buddha fed five hundred men with one loaf of bread, cured lepers, and helped the blind to see.

Most of Jesus’ miracles were rather “old hat” by the time the Gospel authors wrote about them. It could be claimed it was just coincidence that Jesus shared similar miracles with these others, but what is more likely is that the Gospel’s authors mimicked these other Gods to raise Jesus’ status.

The Old Testament books contained stories of hundreds of miracles. Jesus, portrayed as the next prophet of Israel, was made to work miracles, just like Moses, Elijah and others.

If Jesus was really God, surely he should have pulled off some pioneering pranks by doing something new - maybe conducted a concerto, turned on a television with a remote control, or water- skied on the Sea of Galilee. If Jesus had cured the world of small- pox, leprosy, or cancer, he would have made a very convincing case for his divinity. Modern readers are left disappointed, as Jesus only repeated what could rightly be considered as run of the mill stunts, and there were no lasting benefits from his performances.

The Gospels relate tales of cures, exorcisms, and risings from the dead. Those with paraplegia, leprosy, insanity, cerebral palsy, blindness, or had just given up breathing, were fixed in a flash. If Jesus had done all this, the Jewish social security system would have saved a stack of shekels, and Jesus would have been seriously popular. Consider how today’s faith healers can attract crowds of thousands with only the hope of heaven’s help, ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BchBmA5Dukw ) whereas Jesus, if the stories are true, did much better than them - Jesus repeatedly wowed many different audiences with numerous party tricks.

If Jesus really did miracles, news of him would have spread like wildfire. There would have been no doubt he was divine, someone special, much more than just a preacher pushing parables. Everyone would have held Jesus in high esteem, and there would have been no squabbles with Romans, Sadducees, or Pharisees. Jesus would not have been crucified as a zealot.

The fact Jesus was executed means he was a trouble causer, not a superstar, so he did not do miracles.

Paul, who probably met the original disciples over a decade after Jesus died, did not document that Christ performed a single miracle. Paul’s writings predated the Gospels, so Paul had no idea Jesus was a wonder worker.

A scrutiny of all the other first-century epistles in the Bible - James, Jude, 1 and 2 Peter, and 1, 2, and 3 John – reveals no mention of miracles. Believers who had not read the Gospels wrote these epistles. The only place miracles are mentioned is in the Gospels, and they copied each other’s miracle stories.

Evangelical Gospel authors invented Jesus’ miracles, a fact easily deduced from an objective appraisal of the Bible!

In the first four centuries CE, miracle stories gave Jesus an immediate status, although that relied on one essential factor - the credulity of the believer.
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04-06-2015, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2015 04:24 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(04-06-2015 08:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 02:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm almost speechless.

You have addressed none of my arguments, but have just restated your unexplained and illogical opinion.

I've given you 6 references to James being a religious leader. I could have given more. You have discussed none of them.

The fact is James wrote a letter to his fellow Jews which discussed the Jewish law. It is in your bible. If James had "experienced the Messiah" he would have said so in his letter. If he had "experienced" a "Messianic pretender" he may or may not have said so in his letter. How have you jumped to the conclusion he knew a Messiah? Who was this Messiah you claim James knew?

Why are you speechless, Mark? Because I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, was the son of a carpenter, not a rabbi's son, and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?

I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul, that the gospels and Paul didn't exist in the first century as the Bible portrays them to exist, but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law to a sect that didn't exist? I think, rather, you are making a case that James should be apocrypha and not canon, but "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

"I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul,"

The author of Acts tried to shore up Paul’s status by having Paul (and his handkerchief) perform a number of miracles. Yet in Paul’s writings there is no mention of miracles. Paul most certainly would have written about his own miraculous powers had they been true. Paul revealed many personality traits in his letters, but genuine modesty definitely was not one of them.
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04-06-2015, 03:32 PM (This post was last modified: 04-06-2015 03:55 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(04-06-2015 08:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 02:42 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I'm almost speechless.

You have addressed none of my arguments, but have just restated your unexplained and illogical opinion.

I've given you 6 references to James being a religious leader. I could have given more. You have discussed none of them.

The fact is James wrote a letter to his fellow Jews which discussed the Jewish law. It is in your bible. If James had "experienced the Messiah" he would have said so in his letter. If he had "experienced" a "Messianic pretender" he may or may not have said so in his letter. How have you jumped to the conclusion he knew a Messiah? Who was this Messiah you claim James knew?

Why are you speechless, Mark? Because I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, was the son of a carpenter, not a rabbi's son, and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?

I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul, that the gospels and Paul didn't exist in the first century as the Bible portrays them to exist, but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law to a sect that didn't exist? I think, rather, you are making a case that James should be apocrypha and not canon, but "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

"...but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law ..."

Yes. Let me explain it to you again. Apologies to those who have read this before...

James’ Letter (The Epistle of James)

Many Christians are not aware that Yeshua’s brother may have his very own letter in the Bible. Yet it is there, tucked inconspicuously under the thirteen letters attributed to Paul.

The Catholic encyclopedia claims there is no doubt who the author was:

“Internal evidence (contents of the Epistle, its style, address, date, and place of composition) points unmistakably to James, the Lord’s brother, the Bishop of Jerusalem, as the author; he exactly, and he alone, fulfils the conditions required in the writer of the Epistle.”

Yet it is surprising that the authors acknowledge James was Jesus’ brother here, when that fact is denied elsewhere in the same publication by calling James Jesus’ cousin. The authors call James a bishop, thereby implying James was a Christian, which he most definitely was not. There has never been a Jewish bishop. Christian bishops did not exist anywhere until (at earliest) the 90’s CE, thirty years after James died.

No one can be sure Yeshua’s brother wrote or dictated James’ letter, but even if he did not, the letter is from an early Jewish source, so one possibly close to Yeshua. Many scholars date the letter to about 60 CE, although the Catholic encyclopedia states

“about A.D. 47.”

The letter is addressed to the twelve Jewish tribes of the dispersion, so was to be distributed outside Jerusalem. It has a mildly authoritarian tone, as one would expect from a leader. The author does not mention the word “Church.” The communities he wrote to (outside Jerusalem) worshipped in synagogues, not Churches:

“Now suppose a man comes into your synagogue...” (James 2:2, NJB.)

James says nothing about his (now) famous brother’s exploits. James does not mention Yeshua’s divinity, miracles, sacrificial death or resurrection. If James thought his brother, or his close associate, was a miracle working Son of God, and he knew Yeshua had risen from the dead, there would not be much else worth talking about! All your letters would be laced with excited expletives about supernatural events. James’ letter is not, because James did not believe baloney about Yeshua.

James was a pious Jew. A central theme of his letter is that it is important to obey “the Law.”

“You see, if a man keeps the whole of the Law, except for one small point at which he fails, he is still guilty of breaking it all” (James 2:10 JB.)

“But the man who looks steadily at the perfect law of freedom and makes that his habit - not listening and then forgetting, but actively putting it into practice - will be happy in all that he does” (James 1:25 JB.)

James was referring to the Jewish Law, which the Jerusalem Bible admits in a footnote. This is the opposite of Paul’s proposition that salvation is better secured by releasing oneself from obedience to the Law, an admission also admitted in another footnote in the Jerusalem Bible.

James wrote that faith was pointless without good works:

“Take the case, my brothers, of someone who has never done a sin- gle good act but claims that he has faith. Will that faith save him? If one of the brothers or one of the sisters is in need of clothes and has not enough food to live on, and one of you says to them, ‘I wish you well; keep yourself warm and eat plenty’, without giving them these bare necessities of life, then what good is that? Faith is like that: if good works do not go with it, it is quite dead” (James 2:14–17, NJB.)

James emphasized the importance of action:

“If there are any wise or learned men among you, let them show it by their good lives, with humility and wisdom in their actions” (James 3:13, NJB.)

It can be argued that James had heard Paul’s opinionated preaching about faith, and rejected it outright as nonsense.

Consider the following:

“Remember this, my dear brothers, be quick to listen but slow to speak and slow to rouse your temper, God’s righteousness is never served by man’s anger.” (James 1:19–20, NJB.)

James was cut from a different cloth to the self righteous, often angry Paul, a man who appears to have rarely listened to others.

James wrote

“Above all, my brothers, do not swear by heaven or by earth, or use any oaths at all. If you mean ‘yes,’ you must say ‘yes;’ if you mean ‘no,’ say ‘no’. Otherwise you make yourselves liable to judgment” (James 5:12, NJB.)

This is refreshingly real, although a Christian might hope to hear something a little more profound from the brother of the Son of God!

James believed in the truth of Jewish Scripture. He did not tolerate hypocrisy. He had some socialist ideals, which one would expect from a pious Essene. Yeshua, being from the same family and the same religion, probably had similar beliefs.

There is nothing in James’ letter to suggest an anti-Roman stance, but the letter may have been edited. It is also possible James knew that if any anti-Roman literature found its way into the government’s hands he would suffer the same fate as John and Yeshua, and never write another letter again.

James’ letter only just made it into the canon. In the fourth century, its status was disputed. Augustine and Jerome accepted it very reluctantly, so probably others could not ignore the connection with Yeshua.

Martin Luther thought the letter had little doctrinal value because it so blatantly contradicted Paul’s teachings. Paul was Luther’s hero. Luther called James’ letter “an Epistle of straw.” Luther clearly had a very limited understanding of the real history. Modern readers have the benefit of another 500 years of scholarship.

References:

Tabor, J. 2006 “The Jesus Dynasty”. Harper Collins. London.

Eisenman, Robert H. “James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls”

http://www.thenazareneway.com/james_the_..._jesus.htm

http://jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/siljampe.htm

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/james.html

http://tquid.sharpens.org/Luther_ canon.htm

http://www.philipharland.com/Blog/2009/01/15/podcast- 37–jewish-followers-of-jesus-part-1–ebionites/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej_Z3sTZ6PM
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05-06-2015, 05:41 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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05-06-2015, 11:02 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(04-06-2015 09:54 AM)Leo Wrote:  
(04-06-2015 08:20 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Why are you speechless, Mark? Because I'm challenging you to explain how it is per YOUR theories that the brother of Jesus (or whomever James was) never met a Messiah, was the son of a carpenter, not a rabbi's son, and became a religious leader of a group/writer unto the group--a group that didn't exist because you said the gospels weren't to be written for centuries to come?

I'm speechless. You've said Jesus did no miracles, nor Paul, that the gospels and Paul didn't exist in the first century as the Bible portrays them to exist, but that, somehow, you accept that a certain James was writing to Jewish people a diatribe on the Law to a sect that didn't exist? I think, rather, you are making a case that James should be apocrypha and not canon, but "Lucy, you got some splainin' to do!"

Hey you are ignoring the mark post above. Please answer the Mark post #314.

There are no question marks or questions appearing in post #314. What answer are you seeking of me?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-06-2015, 11:10 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Mark,

I know who the Nazarenes were but I disagree with the thin-as-uncooked pastry dough theory of who they were. Yes, they were called Nazarenes after Jesus of Nazareth. No, they weren't Qumran sectarians teaching mystic ideas. Yes, there are no extant early histories of Nazareth. However, it was remarked that it was a crummy little town... "Can anything good come from [little old] Nazareth"?

And when I say YOUR theories, it's because I know well you are hiding behind what you've heard is taught by secular academics today, aka, this year, aka a few years back it was Jesus faked His death on the cross and started Christianity by Himself, etc. I'm the person with the degree in Religion/biblical studies from a secular college, remember?

Religious historian, please.

James wrote a letter. Secular academics have left their old path that Mark was early/first and now you are agreeing with them that James was written early. And? Do you have any original ideas today? The Roman conspiracy was academic garbage same as this, same as Nazareth theory. What do YOU think?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-06-2015, 11:12 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
PS. If I wanted to argue with my professors, I'd go back for a third degree. Kindly either tell me what you think about this stuff or leave me alone, please.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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05-06-2015, 11:23 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Q, I have but three questions for you at the moment;

1: Are you a believer in the resurrected Christ?

2: If so, from where do you get the information regarding that belief?

3: If the bible, to what degree? That is to say, do you regard the bible as the inspired word of God?

"If you're going my way, I'll go with you."- Jim Croce
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