Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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10-06-2015, 05:55 AM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2015 06:21 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(09-06-2015 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 07:03 PM)daniel1948 Wrote:  The objections to the idea of Jesus being sacrificed only have validity if one assumes Pauline Trinitarianism. Of course it's absurd for God to sacrifice Himself to Himself. But there's a more rational reading of the scriptures: The Marcionites noted the incompatibility of the God of the OT and the God of the NT and reached the conclusion that they are different Gods. In Marcionite theology, the God of the OT created the material world and (as stated in the OT) is ruthless and capricious. But the God of the NT (again, according to the Marcionites) is the God who sent Jesus Christ (to save us from the evil God of the OT). In this theology, Jesus didn't suffer at all. It was all an illusion to trick the creator God into releasing Mankind from original sin. The real Jesus was laughing on the sidelines as an illusion was crucified.

Of course it's all bullshit. Jesus was executed for attempting to overthrow Roman rule. The same fate that awaits all unsuccessful revolutionaries. But Paul decided to make a religion out of it and was clever enough to pull it off. Which is why people who call themselves Christians so seldom follow any of the teachings of Jesus. Paul hit on a foolproof enticement: To be a Christian you didn't have to follow any of those inconvenient rules (like turning the other cheek or giving all your stuff to the poor) you only had to "believe" that Jesus was God.

And if you're stupid enough to believe all that sacrifice stuff, then you're probably also stupid enough to give money to the church. I think the church makes the story stupid on purpose: They don't want smart people in their religion because smart people won't give their money to a bunch of fat, lazy priests. They only want people stupid enough to give money, so they make the story stupid on purpose. Thus we have the Trinity and the Resurrection, and the sacrifice of Jesus for "our" sins.

I've never subscribed to the different OT/NT god theories. Why? Because in both testaments, God both punishes and rewards, shows mercy to some, judgment to others.

As for God sacrificing Himself:

1. Killing one man seems could only save one man. It would be logical for a much larger sacrifice, of significance.

2. God is in all and fills all. So He'd be sacrificing Himself regardless.

Also, who are the "they" you write of who dumbed down the scriptures to make money? Did you know the Bible was written by 40 authors over a millennium, everyone from kings to priests to prophets to shepherds? I can believe one man, Muhammed, had an agenda. You are making the Bible the greatest conspiracy theory in history.

"I've never subscribed to the different OT/NT god theories. Why?...."

So it's not just because you believe everything you've been told?

"Because in both testaments, God both punishes and rewards, shows mercy to some, judgment to others."

What a consistent deity! Must be the same guy. How else could he possibly be so even handed?

"As for God sacrificing Himself:

1. Killing one man seems could only save one man."


Well....that explains....nothing. It doesn't even make sense.

"2. God is in all and fills all. So He'd be sacrificing Himself regardless."

I wish you would sacrifice yourself.

Not really.

Please just keep posting.

It's entertainig.

And I get to read Bucky, Daniel and Tonechaser.
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10-06-2015, 07:53 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(08-04-2015 05:04 AM)Mage The Entertainer Wrote:  Jesus dying for our sins serves no purpose when its his daddy that requires the death penalty for though crimes and victim-less crimes in the first place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pl1AIbUois

This video leads one into accepting the concept of religious sacrifice, which I don't so it's all entirely moot.

Archi

"I love the term magic realism. It's about expanding how you see the world. I think we live in an age where we're just hammered to think this is what the world is. Everything's saying 'That's the world.' And it's not the world. The world is a million possible things." - TG

Salman Rushdie talks to Terry Gilliam
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10-06-2015, 07:54 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Quote:Excellent points.

"According to Paul scripture and revelation are the only sources he mentions having for his story. The Jesus he knows and refers to and speaks to is always in space and because of this he never clearly places Jesus on earth or in human history."

True.

Paul clearly was unaware of the Jeebus of the gospels...because they hadn't been written yet.

I see. So Paul, a monotheist Jew, had a Jesus of Nazareth in space, although Jesus was never born nor existed. Interesting...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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10-06-2015, 08:05 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(09-06-2015 10:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 09:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I've never subscribed to the different OT/NT god theories. Why? Because in both testaments, God both punishes and rewards, shows mercy to some, judgment to others.

As for God sacrificing Himself:

1. Killing one man seems could only save one man. It would be logical for a much larger sacrifice, of significance.

2. God is in all and fills all. So He'd be sacrificing Himself regardless.

Also, who are the "they" you write of who dumbed down the scriptures to make money? Did you know the Bible was written by 40 authors over a millennium, everyone from kings to priests to prophets to shepherds? I can believe one man, Muhammed, had an agenda. You are making the Bible the greatest conspiracy theory in history.

Actually it was a "set of conspiracies". Most of them politically motivated. The OT was initiated by Judean priests to control the Jews on return from exile. There were far more than "40 authors". In many cases they edited Babylonia myths. You actually know almost nothing about the Bible, as you have demonstrated many many times here.

Re : 2 I see you're a pantheist. Nice.
(Too bad you have yet to offer even one shred of evidence for any god. So basically, you're whistling in the wind here.)

I said the Romans were pantheist.

The OT couldn't have been written to control the Jews after the first diasporas (Assyria and/or Babylon) because they solidly reprove Israel as apostate. As I've mentioned to you before, but you "forgot" somehow, 100% of Israel's kings are condemned in the Chronicles/Kings as wicked, and Israel itself as vile and apostate as a nation. Take pot shots at the kings! How would that allow the priests to control anything but their own imminent executions?

You are the one with unsubstantiated claims. The authorships of the Bible, not just the NT, count to about 40 persons. YOU are the person with ZERO textual or historical evidence to prove teams of writers. Even if we accept JDEP, that would give us FOUR, not 400, sources for the OT.

I will continue to try to be patient with you but I'm tired of you shifting stances like the wind. Is it four OT sources or teams of hundreds of people accusing their monarchs of wickedness and telling the people God would RETURN them to DIASPORA to "control" them?

With fodder like this, I can do Christian stand up comedy. "Did you hear the one about the atheist who said the Bible was written to control the Jews by telling them they are their leaders were rejected by God and heading for destruction unless they prayed a lot?"

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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10-06-2015, 08:18 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(10-06-2015 08:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Even if we accept JDEP, that would give us FOUR, not 400, sources for the OT.

Uh... JDEP is a theory about who wrote the Torah/Pentateuch, plus maybe Joshua. That's 5 or 6 books, not the entire Old Testament.
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10-06-2015, 07:35 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(10-06-2015 07:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:Excellent points.

"According to Paul scripture and revelation are the only sources he mentions having for his story. The Jesus he knows and refers to and speaks to is always in space and because of this he never clearly places Jesus on earth or in human history."

True.

Paul clearly was unaware of the Jeebus of the gospels...because they hadn't been written yet.

I see. So Paul, a monotheist Jew, had a Jesus of Nazareth in space, although Jesus was never born nor existed. Interesting...

No, you don't see. I could explain it to you, again, but you quite obviously have a closed mind when it comes to new ideas.
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10-06-2015, 07:52 PM (This post was last modified: 10-06-2015 08:32 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(10-06-2015 08:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The OT couldn't have been written to control the Jews after the first diasporas (Assyria and/or Babylon) because they solidly reprove Israel as apostate. As I've mentioned to you before, but you "forgot" somehow, 100% of Israel's kings are condemned in the Chronicles/Kings as wicked, and Israel itself as vile and apostate as a nation. Take pot shots at the kings! How would that allow the priests to control anything but their own imminent executions?

You really are a sad little uneducated clueless man. You REALLY should take Bible 101 some day, instead of reading Fundie pamphlets. There is NOT ONE scholar you can quote that agrees with this, and you have provided not ONE substantiated referenced anything. I never said the "OT" was written bla bla bla. If you had ever taken ONE class or actually read the Bible you would know that the Documentary Hypothesis refers to the first 4 books and maybe the 5th. I realize this all comes as a shock to a Fundie nut case who never took a class, but try to follow along.

(10-06-2015 08:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You are the one with unsubstantiated claims. The authorships of the Bible, not just the NT, count to about 40 persons. YOU are the person with ZERO textual or historical evidence to prove teams of writers. Even if we accept JDEP, that would give us FOUR, not 400, sources for the OT.

You have no clue what they "count to" or who actually assembled or wrote what, and in fact you don't care and you have told us you don't care, ("The bible is the insired word of god"). So which is it, 40 or one? I'm getting really tired of you shifting here, and i will try to be patient. Tongue Well no I won't. Not one scholar agrees with you and you have again made an assertion with no substantiation. You are no scholar, and you are incompetent to say anything without an academic reference. I have provided many in all my papers here. I never gave a number. It certainly was never 40, and in fact it would never be possible to determine as the myths were appropriated, not "authored" which you would know IF you had ever taken even one class in the Bible.

(10-06-2015 08:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I will continue to try to be patient with you but I'm tired of you shifting stances like the wind. Is it four OT sources or teams of hundreds of people accusing their monarchs of wickedness and telling the people God would RETURN them to DIASPORA to "control" them?

No one cares what you do here, or what you're tired of. Your question is mindless and betrays a COMPLETE lack of ANY knowledge of Hebrew culture and literature.

(10-06-2015 08:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  With fodder like this, I can do Christian stand up comedy. "Did you hear the one about the atheist who said the Bible was written to control the Jews by telling them they are their leaders were rejected by God and heading for destruction unless they prayed a lot?"

All you do is comedy anyway. Facepalm ... Weeping

In "Who Wrote The Bible" DR, (I repeat DR.) Richard Ellliott Friedmann can explain to you the complex issues of the return from Exile. You read that BEFORE I will reply again to even ONE of you totally ignorant posts, you incompetent imbecile. The fact is the Torah of Moses FIRST APPEARED in human history when Ezra brought it back from Exile along with the letter from the Persian Emperor which permitted him to rule in the name of the Emperor, (as recounted IN THE BIBLE), and presented to the people in the Fall Festival AS RECOUNTED in the Book of Nehemiah. There is not a shred of evidence for it before that, anywhere by anyone. It is never mentioned anywhere, and there is no archeological evidence for it before that date. It did not exist before that. No scholar has ever suggested Kings and Chronicles were assembled by the 4 sources of the Documentary Hypothesis, (something you clearly have demonstrated you know absolutely NOTHING about), and neither did I. You make it up, in your complete ignorance.

But please feel free to continue your comedy act here. You are quite the joke.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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10-06-2015, 08:16 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(10-06-2015 07:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:Excellent points.

"According to Paul scripture and revelation are the only sources he mentions having for his story. The Jesus he knows and refers to and speaks to is always in space and because of this he never clearly places Jesus on earth or in human history."

True.

Paul clearly was unaware of the Jeebus of the gospels...because they hadn't been written yet.

I see. So Paul, a monotheist Jew, had a Jesus of Nazareth in space, although Jesus was never born nor existed. Interesting...


It is interesting. Extremely. Paul's so called conversion comes purely from his hallucination on the road to Damascus. The reader assumes that Jesus' entire gospel was revealed to him there or shortly thereafter. (I have my own questions about this and they involve mind altering drugs.) Think about this:

--The gospels come decades later and are the first we hear about an earthly Jesus.

--The gospels appear to be unrestrainedly fictitious in their content and even in structure.

--Every single story has discernible allegorical and propogandistic content and intent.

--Even the first Mark looks like meta-parable where outsiders are told some type of story while the insiders are told what it really means.

Everything is either not independent or fabricated like the Infancy gospels, forged epistles and even Jesus letter to Abgar.

If you truly want to get in depth with some fascinating readings that in the very least should cause you to take a step back and look at why you believe what you believe I would suggest the following books:

1) Stephen Law - Evidence, Miracles and the Existence of Jesus
2.) Robert M. Price - The Christ myth Theory and it's Problems
3.) Early Dougherty - The Jesus Puzzle
4.) Randall Helms - Gospel Fictions
5.) Richard Carrier - On the Historicity of Jesus, why we may have reason to doubt

Read those and then come back to us with logical reasons how these cannot be taken seriously. In the very least we have a mesmerizing amount of evidence to cause us to doubt and in my very humble and unworthy opinion, reason to not believe at all. Confused

**Crickets** -- God
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10-06-2015, 09:55 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(10-06-2015 08:16 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 07:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I see. So Paul, a monotheist Jew, had a Jesus of Nazareth in space, although Jesus was never born nor existed. Interesting...


It is interesting. Extremely. Paul's so called conversion comes purely from his hallucination on the road to Damascus. The reader assumes that Jesus' entire gospel was revealed to him there or shortly thereafter. (I have my own questions about this and they involve mind altering drugs.) Think about this:

--The gospels come decades later and are the first we hear about an earthly Jesus.

--The gospels appear to be unrestrainedly fictitious in their content and even in structure.

--Every single story has discernible allegorical and propogandistic content and intent.

--Even the first Mark looks like meta-parable where outsiders are told some type of story while the insiders are told what it really means.

Everything is either not independent or fabricated like the Infancy gospels, forged epistles and even Jesus letter to Abgar.

If you truly want to get in depth with some fascinating readings that in the very least should cause you to take a step back and look at why you believe what you believe I would suggest the following books:

1) Stephen Law - Evidence, Miracles and the Existence of Jesus
2.) Robert M. Price - The Christ myth Theory and it's Problems
3.) Early Dougherty - The Jesus Puzzle
4.) Randall Helms - Gospel Fictions
5.) Richard Carrier - On the Historicity of Jesus, why we may have reason to doubt

Read those and then come back to us with logical reasons how these cannot be taken seriously. In the very least we have a mesmerizing amount of evidence to cause us to doubt and in my very humble and unworthy opinion, reason to not believe at all. Confused

I agree with all of this. But from Q's perspective, you're just a goddamn atheist... so why would he read any books you recommend? He doesn't even read what us atheists post, or if he does he just skims over it without digesting anything.

Re "Paul's so called conversion comes purely from his hallucination on the road to Damascus."

I agree Paul's ideas are very much a product of his own delusions. Yet Paul knew nothing of a "road to Damascus" appearance of a Jeebus.... because he never mentions it in any of his own letters. The road to Demascus story is a second century fiction invented by the author of Acts... one designed to create some sort of tangible connection between Jeebus and Paul's theology.
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10-06-2015, 10:04 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(10-06-2015 08:16 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(10-06-2015 07:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I see. So Paul, a monotheist Jew, had a Jesus of Nazareth in space, although Jesus was never born nor existed. Interesting...


It is interesting. Extremely. Paul's so called conversion comes purely from his hallucination on the road to Damascus. The reader assumes that Jesus' entire gospel was revealed to him there or shortly thereafter. (I have my own questions about this and they involve mind altering drugs.) Think about this:

--The gospels come decades later and are the first we hear about an earthly Jesus.

--The gospels appear to be unrestrainedly fictitious in their content and even in structure.

--Every single story has discernible allegorical and propogandistic content and intent.

--Even the first Mark looks like meta-parable where outsiders are told some type of story while the insiders are told what it really means.

Everything is either not independent or fabricated like the Infancy gospels, forged epistles and even Jesus letter to Abgar.

If you truly want to get in depth with some fascinating readings that in the very least should cause you to take a step back and look at why you believe what you believe I would suggest the following books:

1) Stephen Law - Evidence, Miracles and the Existence of Jesus
2.) Robert M. Price - The Christ myth Theory and it's Problems
3.) Early Dougherty - The Jesus Puzzle
4.) Randall Helms - Gospel Fictions
5.) Richard Carrier - On the Historicity of Jesus, why we may have reason to doubt

Read those and then come back to us with logical reasons how these cannot be taken seriously. In the very least we have a mesmerizing amount of evidence to cause us to doubt and in my very humble and unworthy opinion, reason to not believe at all. Confused

"The gospels come decades later and are the first we hear about an earthly Jesus"

Yes!

And I think it is very likely that they only appeared after the first Jewish War of 66 to 70. This was precisely when the Flavian dynasty came to power and, I think, created the gospels as propaganda against the Jews.
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