Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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18-06-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(18-06-2015 08:31 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-06-2015 08:50 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  So let me get this straight: If I write a book about, say, Abraham Lincoln, and I get the details right about Civil War Era persons, places, etc. -- that "proves" that I must have written the book in 1865? That seems to be what you are claiming about the documentary hypothesis. If so, you are as nutty as a fruitcake.

You don't get it. You can write a book today getting hundreds of facts about Lincoln from past sources. There was no study of archaeology in the ancient past. Today, archaeology informs us that the Bible got hundreds of the details right about the ancient world and was written contemporaneous to the events cited.

Example, mainline scholars insist that the Tanakh is post-exilic. Then archaeologists find the structures of ancient doors, roofs, window cuttings, etc. that are far older, hundreds or even a thousand years older, and the details in the Bible for narratives that are taken to date to those times are proved right.

Where in the Bible are there any details about the structures of "ancient doors, roofs, window cuttings, etc."? The only such details that I've seen involve the building of the sanctuary (supposedly a portable structure that the Israelites carried with them during their wanderings in the desert -- and no way has any archaeological evidence of that ever been found) or the temple -- details of which would have been a recent memory during post-exilic times.

Actually, as Banjo has already noted, archaeology has found numerous instances of things that the Bible either got wrong, or things that couldn't possibly have been known at the time the Torah was supposedly written (i.e., anachronisms). Archaelogy, far from "disproving" the documentary hypothesis, actually supports it. What "archaelogy" are you referring to? The kind that comes from AiG?

Maybe if you gave us a few specific details about how archaelogy has "disproved" the documentary hypothesis -- but I don't think you have any such details. You're just farting into the wind.
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19-06-2015, 08:49 AM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2015 08:56 AM by The Q Continuum.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(18-06-2015 08:46 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 08:31 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You don't get it. You can write a book today getting hundreds of facts about Lincoln from past sources. There was no study of archaeology in the ancient past. Today, archaeology informs us that the Bible got hundreds of the details right about the ancient world and was written contemporaneous to the events cited.

Actually archeology has shown the bible got many things wrong. There is no evidence of the exodus. Nothing. This is but one example.

I study Rome. I have been doing so now for 35 years. (Geez I am old). There is a minor detail in the bible that always makes me smile. The Roman soldier giving evidence he left his post when Jesus went missing from the tomb.

Are you aware of the punishment for the desertion of a post by a Roman soldier? Death. And not just any death.

Here is an image.
[Image: tumblr_inline_mr4fuieOKe1qz4rgp.jpg]

It was called fustuarium. A horrible way to die. We know from historic sources that in general, Roman soldiers had little respect for the Jews. So why would this soldier give up his life in this way? For a people he despised? In an outpost that was hated?

It makes no sense. And this is but one example.

As for the bible? It'd be more useful were it to have the recipe for disinfectant. Science discovered that gem. The bible does not even instruct how to raise crops properly or have engineering advice. It has nothing but mythical worthless tales. With a few good lines here and there.

I'm a big fan of Roman and Greek studies as well.

You are understating. It was an entire group of soldiers that were reported as falling asleep on watch and whom all earned the death penalty. However, the Bible also reports the heightened, conspiratorial relations between the Jews and Pilate enhanced over the whole killing Jesus thing, and Occam's razor (and there are Bible statements along these lines) indicates they kept their mouths shut rather than risk bigger trouble from Roman authorities above Pilate.

Put another way, they would have looked stupid in a report saying things like:

* The stone was moved, which weighed tons

* The entire group passed out when angels appeared

* The entire soliders' group allowed the body to leave the tomb

* Etc.

The soldiers earned the death penalty several times over!

Again, you are understating Rome. At the time ONLY the Jews and their "Messiahs" were messing with the Pax Romana. THE TOUGHEST, NASTIEST soldiers in the empire were sent to Judea. And the law was a soldier could compel a Jew to carry his stuff for a mile. What little Nazis they were! So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!

PS. The Exodus objection makes as little sense to me. We know deserts have changed dramatically over the past centuries, new ones created and etc. We know that in a constant desert in modern times like the Sinai, an enduring desert if you will, that sands blow and shift. We know the Jews were nomads living in tents, and the Bible contains entire chapters about the wanderings in the desert, and that all the tabernacle items and personal possessions were to be carried, etc. 2 people or 2 million people, what archaeological remains are you seeking from desert sands from people who pegged tents down 3,500 years ago? That's an argument from silence that is a stretch (tent rope pun intended).

You do know the Jews didn't build ANY permanent structures, not even a temple for God, in the desert wanderings?

Further, even though revisionist try to shift the goal posts, we can see hostile takeover evidence in both ancient Egypt and Israel... how do you think those Egyptian dynasties got shifted? It could have been the Exodus disaster weakened the power base and helped destroy the army...

Overall, the problem you are having is that you are NOT lacking evidence for hundreds of places, people, etc. you are lacking archaeological evidence for miracles. Good luck with that!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-06-2015, 08:53 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(18-06-2015 09:15 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 08:31 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You don't get it. You can write a book today getting hundreds of facts about Lincoln from past sources. There was no study of archaeology in the ancient past. Today, archaeology informs us that the Bible got hundreds of the details right about the ancient world and was written contemporaneous to the events cited.

Example, mainline scholars insist that the Tanakh is post-exilic. Then archaeologists find the structures of ancient doors, roofs, window cuttings, etc. that are far older, hundreds or even a thousand years older, and the details in the Bible for narratives that are taken to date to those times are proved right.

Where in the Bible are there any details about the structures of "ancient doors, roofs, window cuttings, etc."? The only such details that I've seen involve the building of the sanctuary (supposedly a portable structure that the Israelites carried with them during their wanderings in the desert -- and no way has any archaeological evidence of that ever been found) or the temple -- details of which would have been a recent memory during post-exilic times.

Actually, as Banjo has already noted, archaeology has found numerous instances of things that the Bible either got wrong, or things that couldn't possibly have been known at the time the Torah was supposedly written (i.e., anachronisms). Archaelogy, far from "disproving" the documentary hypothesis, actually supports it. What "archaelogy" are you referring to? The kind that comes from AiG?

Maybe if you gave us a few specific details about how archaelogy has "disproved" the documentary hypothesis -- but I don't think you have any such details. You're just farting into the wind.

1. JDEP theory is irrelevant as there are Bible codes and prophecies showing that whether teams of redactors or lone authors, the Pentateuch is the word of God. I'm more concerned with the late dates of authorship implied...

2. ...Which are the height of stupidity (not you, the mainline scholars) because the prophets REBUKE PEOPLE FOR NOT FOLLOWING Pentateuch Law. The Law HAS TO be written BEFORE the PROPHETS, ALL OF THEM. THEY ALL MENTION THE LAWS OF MOSES.

3. A quick Google found this page, since you are accusing me of passing wind in the wind... Smile

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/authorship-of-exodus/

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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19-06-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 09:15 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Where in the Bible are there any details about the structures of "ancient doors, roofs, window cuttings, etc."? The only such details that I've seen involve the building of the sanctuary (supposedly a portable structure that the Israelites carried with them during their wanderings in the desert -- and no way has any archaeological evidence of that ever been found) or the temple -- details of which would have been a recent memory during post-exilic times.

Actually, as Banjo has already noted, archaeology has found numerous instances of things that the Bible either got wrong, or things that couldn't possibly have been known at the time the Torah was supposedly written (i.e., anachronisms). Archaelogy, far from "disproving" the documentary hypothesis, actually supports it. What "archaelogy" are you referring to? The kind that comes from AiG?

Maybe if you gave us a few specific details about how archaelogy has "disproved" the documentary hypothesis -- but I don't think you have any such details. You're just farting into the wind.

1. JDEP theory is irrelevant as there are Bible codes and prophecies showing that whether teams of redactors or lone authors, the Pentateuch is the word of God. I'm more concerned with the late dates of authorship implied...

2. ...Which are the height of stupidity (not you, the mainline scholars) because the prophets REBUKE PEOPLE FOR NOT FOLLOWING Pentateuch Law. The Law HAS TO be written BEFORE the PROPHETS, ALL OF THEM. THEY ALL MENTION THE LAWS OF MOSES.

3. A quick Google found this page, since you are accusing me of passing wind in the wind... Smile

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/authorship-of-exodus/

"Bible codes and prophecies", when they exist at all (Hint: the so-called "Bible code" is a coincidental artifact -- similar "codes" can be found in any piece of writing whatsoever, and they are meaningless), are vague and could be "interpreted" to refer to just about anything. They "prove" absolutely nothing -- especially when people in later times go out of their way to do things that "fulfill the prophecies" (and "Matthew", in his gospel, freely admits to this).

You keep trying to make this point about "the prophets" and JDEP, but it is no point at all. All this proves is that the law existed in some form before the prophetic books were written. So what? If I write something that refers to Roe v. Wade, does that "prove" that Roe v. Wade happened 500 years ago? (Answer for dim people like yourself: No, it does not.)

I looked at the website you reference. (1) It seems a bit biased. (2) They are expressing opinions based on their "feels". I see nothing there that "disproves" any part of the documentary hypothesis. You have a mighty strange notion of what "proof" is if you think it does.
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19-06-2015, 04:59 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2015 06:59 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 08:46 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Actually archeology has shown the bible got many things wrong. There is no evidence of the exodus. Nothing. This is but one example.

I study Rome. I have been doing so now for 35 years. (Geez I am old). There is a minor detail in the bible that always makes me smile. The Roman soldier giving evidence he left his post when Jesus went missing from the tomb.

Are you aware of the punishment for the desertion of a post by a Roman soldier? Death. And not just any death.

Here is an image.
[Image: tumblr_inline_mr4fuieOKe1qz4rgp.jpg]

It was called fustuarium. A horrible way to die. We know from historic sources that in general, Roman soldiers had little respect for the Jews. So why would this soldier give up his life in this way? For a people he despised? In an outpost that was hated?

It makes no sense. And this is but one example.

As for the bible? It'd be more useful were it to have the recipe for disinfectant. Science discovered that gem. The bible does not even instruct how to raise crops properly or have engineering advice. It has nothing but mythical worthless tales. With a few good lines here and there.

I'm a big fan of Roman and Greek studies as well.

You are understating. It was an entire group of soldiers that were reported as falling asleep on watch and whom all earned the death penalty. However, the Bible also reports the heightened, conspiratorial relations between the Jews and Pilate enhanced over the whole killing Jesus thing, and Occam's razor (and there are Bible statements along these lines) indicates they kept their mouths shut rather than risk bigger trouble from Roman authorities above Pilate.

Put another way, they would have looked stupid in a report saying things like:

* The stone was moved, which weighed tons

* The entire group passed out when angels appeared

* The entire soliders' group allowed the body to leave the tomb

* Etc.

The soldiers earned the death penalty several times over!

Again, you are understating Rome. At the time ONLY the Jews and their "Messiahs" were messing with the Pax Romana. THE TOUGHEST, NASTIEST soldiers in the empire were sent to Judea. And the law was a soldier could compel a Jew to carry his stuff for a mile. What little Nazis they were! So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!

PS. The Exodus objection makes as little sense to me. We know deserts have changed dramatically over the past centuries, new ones created and etc. We know that in a constant desert in modern times like the Sinai, an enduring desert if you will, that sands blow and shift. We know the Jews were nomads living in tents, and the Bible contains entire chapters about the wanderings in the desert, and that all the tabernacle items and personal possessions were to be carried, etc. 2 people or 2 million people, what archaeological remains are you seeking from desert sands from people who pegged tents down 3,500 years ago? That's an argument from silence that is a stretch (tent rope pun intended).

You do know the Jews didn't build ANY permanent structures, not even a temple for God, in the desert wanderings?

Further, even though revisionist try to shift the goal posts, we can see hostile takeover evidence in both ancient Egypt and Israel... how do you think those Egyptian dynasties got shifted? It could have been the Exodus disaster weakened the power base and helped destroy the army...

Overall, the problem you are having is that you are NOT lacking evidence for hundreds of places, people, etc. you are lacking archaeological evidence for miracles. Good luck with that!

"So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!"

These words were placed in Jesus' mouth by the people who wrote the gospels... and they were linked to the Roman government. This was pure propaganda... intended to get the common Jews obeying their Roman masters. It was part of the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" and "dream about heaven" and "don't worry about tomorrow" and "pay your taxes" nonsense.

This spiel is still working today... people like Q... who don't understand the history...say "praise God" in response to a clearly unhistorical piece of propaganda. "God" was the Roman government then; today "he" is, effectively, the hierarchy in churches and governments. “God” keeps commoners bowing to priests, kings, and bureaucrats, the peasants paying their tithes and taxes, women submissive to men, and wayward adolescents obeying their parents. And one of the ways they control the public is by promoting the "word of God."

Q, I invite you to
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!"
by understanding the real history
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19-06-2015, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2015 07:04 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 08:46 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Actually archeology has shown the bible got many things wrong. There is no evidence of the exodus. Nothing. This is but one example.

I study Rome. I have been doing so now for 35 years. (Geez I am old). There is a minor detail in the bible that always makes me smile. The Roman soldier giving evidence he left his post when Jesus went missing from the tomb.

Are you aware of the punishment for the desertion of a post by a Roman soldier? Death. And not just any death.

Here is an image.
[Image: tumblr_inline_mr4fuieOKe1qz4rgp.jpg]

It was called fustuarium. A horrible way to die. We know from historic sources that in general, Roman soldiers had little respect for the Jews. So why would this soldier give up his life in this way? For a people he despised? In an outpost that was hated?

It makes no sense. And this is but one example.

As for the bible? It'd be more useful were it to have the recipe for disinfectant. Science discovered that gem. The bible does not even instruct how to raise crops properly or have engineering advice. It has nothing but mythical worthless tales. With a few good lines here and there.

I'm a big fan of Roman and Greek studies as well.

You are understating. It was an entire group of soldiers that were reported as falling asleep on watch and whom all earned the death penalty. However, the Bible also reports the heightened, conspiratorial relations between the Jews and Pilate enhanced over the whole killing Jesus thing, and Occam's razor (and there are Bible statements along these lines) indicates they kept their mouths shut rather than risk bigger trouble from Roman authorities above Pilate.

Put another way, they would have looked stupid in a report saying things like:

* The stone was moved, which weighed tons

* The entire group passed out when angels appeared

* The entire soliders' group allowed the body to leave the tomb

* Etc.

The soldiers earned the death penalty several times over!

Again, you are understating Rome. At the time ONLY the Jews and their "Messiahs" were messing with the Pax Romana. THE TOUGHEST, NASTIEST soldiers in the empire were sent to Judea. And the law was a soldier could compel a Jew to carry his stuff for a mile. What little Nazis they were! So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!

PS. The Exodus objection makes as little sense to me. We know deserts have changed dramatically over the past centuries, new ones created and etc. We know that in a constant desert in modern times like the Sinai, an enduring desert if you will, that sands blow and shift. We know the Jews were nomads living in tents, and the Bible contains entire chapters about the wanderings in the desert, and that all the tabernacle items and personal possessions were to be carried, etc. 2 people or 2 million people, what archaeological remains are you seeking from desert sands from people who pegged tents down 3,500 years ago? That's an argument from silence that is a stretch (tent rope pun intended).

You do know the Jews didn't build ANY permanent structures, not even a temple for God, in the desert wanderings?

Further, even though revisionist try to shift the goal posts, we can see hostile takeover evidence in both ancient Egypt and Israel... how do you think those Egyptian dynasties got shifted? It could have been the Exodus disaster weakened the power base and helped destroy the army...

Overall, the problem you are having is that you are NOT lacking evidence for hundreds of places, people, etc. you are lacking archaeological evidence for miracles. Good luck with that!

"the Jews and their "Messiahs" were messing with the Pax Romana."

This is one of the few sensible things you have written.

Have a reality check. Your Jeebus, if he ever existed, was not a Christian, and not a Roman. He was a Galilean zealot, possibly a Jewish religious fanatic, who caused a ruckus in Jerusalem, and was executed BY THE ROMANS.

A few decades later, after a large and expensive war, the Romans wrote stories about this Jesus and tried to turn him into a pacifist preacher who told the Jews to behave themselves, pay their taxes, and be a peaceful part of the empire. This Jesus undermined the Jewish religion, and thereby watered down the militaristic expectations of a whole race of trouble causing people (the Jews.) The Romans wrote the gospels as if it was the Jews who had wanted their own Messiah dead. The gospels were propaganda tools, and your Jeebus is a puppet, not a real person.

That the whole setup is plainly fabricated really is as obvious as the nose on your face when you understand the history.
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19-06-2015, 05:46 PM (This post was last modified: 20-06-2015 04:40 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. JDEP theory is irrelevant as there are Bible codes and prophecies showing that whether teams of redactors or lone authors, the Pentateuch is the word of God. I'm more concerned with the late dates of authorship implied...

2. ...Which are the height of stupidity (not you, the mainline scholars) because the prophets REBUKE PEOPLE FOR NOT FOLLOWING Pentateuch Law. The Law HAS TO be written BEFORE the PROPHETS, ALL OF THEM. THEY ALL MENTION THE LAWS OF MOSES.

3. A quick Google found this page, since you are accusing me of passing wind in the wind... Smile

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/authorship-of-exodus/

So you actually LIED and have nothing of the archeological evidence you claimed had refuted the Documentary Hypothesis. The fact that "prophets mention the law of Moses" in NO WAY proves it was WRITTEN in the form it is today, and YOU have not a shred of evidence it was. But thanks for DEMONSTRATING you have no clue what the Documentary Hypothesis even is. It's the ASSEMBLY of sources. No one says they INVENTED the sources. Your point about Moses is a huge fail. There are no "Bible codes". There are just as many codes found in ANY written material, but thanks for demonstrating the utterly stupid level you operate on. The prophets "prove nothing". It's an utterly circular claim. You FAILED to make any link about *how* they prove what you claim is proven from your idiotic evidence. So .... you're actually reduced to "Bible codes". Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Your pathetic impotent deity is a laugh and a half.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-06-2015, 05:47 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
http://www.evidenceunseen.com/authorship-of-exodus/
You are completely incompetent to even BEGIN to discuss this subject.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-06-2015, 05:58 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2015 06:20 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 09:15 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Where in the Bible are there any details about the structures of "ancient doors, roofs, window cuttings, etc."? The only such details that I've seen involve the building of the sanctuary (supposedly a portable structure that the Israelites carried with them during their wanderings in the desert -- and no way has any archaeological evidence of that ever been found) or the temple -- details of which would have been a recent memory during post-exilic times.

Actually, as Banjo has already noted, archaeology has found numerous instances of things that the Bible either got wrong, or things that couldn't possibly have been known at the time the Torah was supposedly written (i.e., anachronisms). Archaelogy, far from "disproving" the documentary hypothesis, actually supports it. What "archaelogy" are you referring to? The kind that comes from AiG?

Maybe if you gave us a few specific details about how archaelogy has "disproved" the documentary hypothesis -- but I don't think you have any such details. You're just farting into the wind.

1. JDEP theory is irrelevant as there are Bible codes and prophecies showing that whether teams of redactors or lone authors, the Pentateuch is the word of God. I'm more concerned with the late dates of authorship implied...

2. ...Which are the height of stupidity (not you, the mainline scholars) because the prophets REBUKE PEOPLE FOR NOT FOLLOWING Pentateuch Law. The Law HAS TO be written BEFORE the PROPHETS, ALL OF THEM. THEY ALL MENTION THE LAWS OF MOSES.

3. A quick Google found this page, since you are accusing me of passing wind in the wind... Smile

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/authorship-of-exodus/

"the Pentateuch is the word of God."

Oh!

The Pentateuch consists of five books: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. Compared to the ancient versions in the Dead Sea Scrolls they are remarkably unchanged since Jesus’ time. It contains instructions to kill adulterers, female fornicators, homosexuals and witches. Permission is given to rape women and girls and smash babies onto rocks. If a man raped a Jewish virgin, he must buy her from her father and marry her. If a girl did not scream loud enough when being raped, she was to be killed. One’s daughter could be sold as a sex slave. If a Jewish girl could not produce the bloody sheets from her wedding night she was to be stoned. People were encouraged to own slaves, and could beat them to death, as long as they did it slowly.

Welcome to the reality of "the word of God."

Read the damn thing for yourself. I've only touched on the atrocities therein.

These writings are very obviously nothing more than the ramblings of primitive barbaric priests trying to maintain their own prestige and authority. "God" was a useful figment of their imaginations used to threaten and cajole the public.
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19-06-2015, 09:11 PM (This post was last modified: 19-06-2015 10:33 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Overall, the problem you are having is that you are NOT lacking evidence for hundreds of places, people, etc. you are lacking archaeological evidence for miracles. Good luck with that!

LOL. NAh. "Overall" the problem is that you are simply full of shit. What is lacking is ANY, even ONE piece of evidence for hundreds of thousands of people wandering for a generation. There is nothing like it in history that has not a shred of evidence. It's simply a myth.

You seem like you're fairly "practiced" at spouting all this nonsensical drivel. In a way that you seem to do it in a practiced way and you seem to think you should be able to do and have your garbage accepted without question. Consider .. Consider

"The gospels report " .... hahaha. You can stop right there. Gospels don't "report" anything. Scholars FAR more expert in their subject than you will ever be totally disagree.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...spels.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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